Muslims

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Valandil
JD - you've offered the most thoughts / quotes here - and there were a few I wanted to respond to (gotta teach myself how to do the "quoter" thingee!).

All you have to do is just press the "quote" botton on the post you want to quote. Then each section you want to quote - break apart and put [quote.][b.] and [/b][/quote.] around it. Minus the periods in there. If you need further explanation - e-mail me or PM me.

First, your statement that religion has caused more wars, death, fanaticism than anything else in history... a common contention, but I beg to differ. World's #1 all-time mass-murderer - Mao Tse Tong, #2 - Stalin - both atheists. #3 would've been Hitler - and if he had a religion, it was probably his own. Napoleon is probably up there somewhere - don't know his religion, but he was a product of an atheist movement.

That is taking small parts. During the course of history - more bloodshed has been spilt for that than anything else. Religion has been the driving force for so much conflict. You only mentioned a couple of 19th and 20th century things. As for Hitler - he was exterminating the Jews as was Stalin. Killing people because of their religion - is just as bad as killing in the name of a religion. To me it's the same thing.

Also - it's not just the bloodshed - it's the fanatical belief system and the conflict that it generates. When I lived in Indiana - everyone was Christian - but there was more bigotry and conflict between Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists and the other Christian religions (they had no jews, or anything) than there is between the Muslims, Christians, Jews and the other religions in New Jersey.

Note though, if you're looking for a little support here - and I do agree with some of what you've said - Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Napoleon were gifts to the world from China, Russia, Germany (via Austria) and France - the UN countries who most opposed the US going after another mass-murderer - Saddam Hussein! (who himself only cloaked his formerly secular government in Islam in order to gain popular and regional support vs US)

Europe is generally happy to let the world go by as long as it doesn't affect them. They only choose to act in places like Bosnia - where it's their next door (then they come to us and BEG us to help them - even though Meloshevic never attacked anyone outside his borders either).

I also take issue with your statement about the midwest from WAY back on this thread (it was you, JD, wasn't it?). Chicago is certainly a diverse area - and we all mostly get along (except that there are probably SOME idiots everywhere - and we Do get our share).

Chicago is in the midwest - but not really like the midwest. I lived in Indiana (seymour) as well as Chicago - the difference is between night and day.

Even many small midwestern towns are diverse - my hometown of Carbondale (pop 26,000) has a very diverse make-up - there's a university there that draws a lot of internationals. It's not the region of our country someone is in - it has more to do with the exposure they've had. Most people are fearful of the unknown - and that's the same if you're in a midwestern small town, somewhere back east or out west - or in a less integrated part of Europe or wherever else. Haven't been to Seymour, Indiana - but even there, your friend could have probably found some good folks who were much more tolerant and accepting.

She could - at Home Depot she does - but it's not the norm there in Seymour. There is a lot of racism and prejudice there - that is one of the reasons I couldn't wait to move back to NJ. One of the things I didn't like was that it was too white and too christian. I like DIVERSITY - you see that EVERYONE - I LIKE THE DIVERSITY. It's one of the reasons I like New Jersey over the other places I have lived - and I have lived in 6 states.

With these times, our country is changing fast - especially the rural parts I think. With modern communications, nowhere is "remote" any longer. I have a lot of hope for that.

Rural parts - such as small town Indiana have a long way to go though.

I had to say that mostly for the benefit of our non-American mooters. Don't want them to think the entire midwest is a bleak place - devoid of anyone who can accept someone who's different. But - don't worry. No offense taken - I'm too old for that. Figure you just may not have had proper midwestern exposure yourself.

I did have plenty of midwestern exposure. But I am afraid that southern Indiana is more prejudice than not. If you live in a suburb of Chicago - which I think you do - that is still not really "midwest".

[The last sane person]

That is taking small parts. During the course of history - more bloodshed has been spilt for that than anything else. Religion has been the driving force for so much conflict. You only mentioned a couple of 19th and 20th century things. As for Hitler - he was exterminating the Jews as was Stalin.

Well, it was more human motives actually. Greed, for one thing. All people did was twist religion to suit their own cause whether it was right or not. DOesnt really matter what religion it is.

and i too am what might be called aethist meaning i believe in no religon nor do i recognize any of their portayals of "god". i have my own little world on that.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The last sane person
Well, it was more human motives actually. Greed, for one thing. All people did was twist religion to suit their own cause whether it was right or not. DOesnt really matter what religion it is.

True - but my feeling is that religion is a manmade thing anyway. So all they do is just take the belief system one step further to use it to condemn others who aren't like them. The KKK uses this, as does the White Supremcist. I am unsure if the Black Panthers use religion to justify their actions. Look at the conflict in Northern Ireland between the Protestant and the Catholics. It's not just Islam that has fanatics - it's all religions. But at the same time - Islam seems to be the most fantatical and the most unaccepting right now of outsiders. Maybe they will go through an "enlightenment" period - I know that many Muslim do want peace - but too many of those still throw in the "evil of the Jews".

Saudi Arabia outlawed Barbie - they said that this jewish doll isn't allowed in Saudi Arabia. It's funny - no one in the US even thought Barbie had a religion. Somehow Saudi Arabia determined she was jewish - no idea how. Maybe they thought that because of Ken - they figure he's missing his anatomy - therefore it must have been a result of a Bris gone SERIOUSLY wrong. It's these kind of remarks and laws made in the Middle East that makes me question their acceptance of others.

[The last sane person]

hahahahaha!!! that is a good one! lol! Poor Ken..... well, at least they wont have to worry about pre marrital sex that way!

But anyhoo, i try to avoid making other peoples religion my bussiness, it save me a lot of frustration that way.

[Artanis]

I know this is OT, but I have to let out some steam.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
And no - I don't think you understand us at all. I wish sometimes the Europeans would listen to the way they sound - like Fat Middle claiming that Europe knows more than the US becuase you have older countries. That is a typical arrogant European attitude - but the sad thing is - I have heard it repeatedly by europeans when I was in England, on the French news and by Europeans who visit the US.

That was not what FM said imo. I think you misunderstood. You suggested Europe should learn from the USA when we're building the EU. He just said your example might not apply very well because the historical and ethnical situation is different in Europe. Is that arrogant?

Europe is generally happy to let the world go by as long as it doesn't affect them. They only choose to act in places like Bosnia - where it's their next door (then they come to us and BEG us to help them - even though Meloshevic never attacked anyone outside his borders either).

Don't know why you said this, now. No one were attacking you or any Americans at the moment. I'm a European. Do you really think I only care about the suffering in my own place, and not in the rest of the world? Do you really think Europeans are so low? If you do not think that of me, please restrain yourself from making such remarks. Try to understand that Europe alone do not have forces to intervene where they want, as the USA have.

[Sheeana]

Go Artanis.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
I'm a little confused that now in school ppl are saying that Jihad has nothing to do with war?? I thought that was the whole point of it? Calling a jihad against infidels, etc. no? In the Middle East death against infidels is preached, is it not?
[...]
What in the religion of Islam makes all these fanatic nuts think that by blowing up innocent ppl they will get to paradise?

I believe jihad, holy war, is understood in different ways by muslims. It could be
- riot against all human made institutions, a revolution all over the world, accepting only the rule of God. (Stated by Sayyid Qubt, one of the founders of political islam)
- War against all apostate muslim state leaders and their regimes (the view of radical islamists).
- Martyrdom: To give your life in the war to (re)establish the islamic state, or the rule of God, as a noble expression of a devoted obedience to God.

Personally I have huge problems with this part of islam, since it is against the right of all humans to religious freedom. But I do not think jihad is a central part of the religion of muslims living in peaceful parts of the world, where they've got freedom of religion and there are no dictatorship.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Artanis
I know this is OT, but I have to let out some steam.
That was not what FM said imo. I think you misunderstood. You suggested Europe should learn from the USA when we're building the EU. He just said your example might not apply very well because the historical and ethnical situation is different in Europe. Is that arrogant?

No - what he said was that it was like the child telling the experience old man how to do something.

Originally posted by Fat middlel
Hahahaha You sound as a little boy speaking to an old man on how he should resolve his problems.

Swedish referendum about the Euro

To me that is arrogant. Repeatedly I have heard the same thing from various Europeans who say that they are more advanced than America solely on the fact that they live in older countries. As I said then - countries don't have memories. The people who live in Europe today get the information about the past the same way we do - by studying and ready.

Don't know why you said this, now. No one were attacking you or any Americans at the moment. I'm a European. Do you really think I only care about the suffering in my own place, and not in the rest of the world? Do you really think Europeans are so low? If you do not think that of me, please restrain yourself from making such remarks.

That iosn't what I said. I think that Europeans care about the suffering of others, what I was getting at was military action, making the HARD choices. I have repeatedly brought up somalia. We were there as peace keepers to make sure the UN food aid got to the peopel who needed it and not by the war lords. We had a Black Helicopter shot down, our soldiers dragged through the street naked. Clinton pulled out. The UN pulled out because they had lost their potection. Where was Europe? Couldn't they have supplied the peace keeping force when we pulled out? (Personally I think we shouldn't have pulled out - but Clinton was a president who only did things based on the polls and the majority of Americans felt we should pull out).

Then Rwanda occurred. Clinton refused to put our troops into another Somalia situation. The world was outraged by this US decision. Where was Europe - where was the REST OF THE WORLD? WHY WAS IT SOLELY OUR LACK OF INVOLVEMENT THAT GOT POINTED OUT???!!!

Europe had NO problem with us going into Bosnia. Again Clinton did not want us to get involved, He wanted Europe to handle it - since it was in Europe. Europe begged us to get involved and we did. Meloshivic didn't attack Europe - attacked no other country than killing his own people. Yet - the US gets ostracized by France, Germany and Russia (the first two countries HIGHLY supported America's action in Bosnia) for going into Iraq.

Try to understand that Europe alone do not have forces to intervene where they want, as the USA have.

The reason you guys don't have the forces is because you spend them all on your social programs - while criticizing the US for not having the scoial programs. I have heard repeatedly how great your social health is and everything else - not that I agree - but we have to support the military because the WORLD relies on it.

That's my problem with the MAJORITY of Europeans and their attitude toward America. Europe is perfectly happy with America - AS LONG AS WE OUR DOING YOUR BIDDING. The US does NOT belong to the world and it is one of the reasons I highly support at this time - the pulling of our troops from South Korea and Europe and other parts of the world. I also support the pullout of the UN. We should treat the UN as an ally - that is all.

The United States should go back to a defensive posture and let the world pull some of it's own weight for once. Of course we can't pull our troops out - because the whole world would destabilize because there is no country to take up the slack. Israel would be eliminated, North Korea would march on Seoul, and who knows what would happen in the Middle East. I'm sure without the threat of US involvement - much of the Middle East would go up in flames - with Pakistan attacking India - or India attacking Pakistan, with Iran marching into Iraq, Turkey marching into Iraq, etc etc.

[Artanis]

I don't want to discuss Europe vs. America with you JD, because I would end up not liking you. And besides it is far off topic. But I want to say that when FM used the words 'child' and 'old man' I read it as a joke.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Artanis
I don't want to discuss Europe vs. America with you JD, because I would end up not liking you. And besides it is far off topic.

Well it's not America vs Europe - but you know a lot of Americans are getting fed up with the European attitude toward our country and our life. SGH has pointed out many of the things that we hear CONTINUOUSLY from Europe and Europeans.

How would you feel if no matter what your country did - it was wrong? It's damned if we do and damned if we don't. Sween may be tired of me saying this stuff and other Europeans may be tired of me saying this stuff. But when things are said that I disagree with - I will NOT keep quiet. I don't hate Europe - I don't even dislike Europe. I think Europe is a great place - but I am tired of the GENERAL European attitude toward the US. We have far less of a problem with Europe - then Europe seems to have with us.

But I want to say that when FM used the words 'child' and 'old man' I read it as a joke.

I edited the quote into the post above. I do not consider it a joke - since I have heard that sentimant REPEATEDLY expressed from other Europeans. Chirac even went around saying that America could learn a lot from Europe because Europe "is older and has more experience" than the US. You obviously don't see it the same way - because it's not directed at you.

Oh and basically there isn't a single person on here that I dislike - even if I strongly disagree with them on some issue.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
How you would feel if no matter what your country did - it was wrong? It's damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I would feel bad about it, and I would probably point it out wherever I thought people got the wrong idea. But I do not think I would start criticising the criticisers. It just make things worse. That's the difference between us, I think. I don't necessarily think the best way to answer an attack is to attack back.

Sween may be tired of me saying this stuff and other Europeans may be tired of me saying this stuff. But when things are said that I disagree with - I will NOT keep quiet. I don't hate Europe - I don't even dislike Europe. I think Europe is a great place - but I am tired of the GENERAL European attitude toward the US.

And I think what you call the general European attitude is non-existing. Europeans do not dislike America, or Americans, in general. What I think we do resent, is the way Americans talk about their country as it should be superior to other countries. You (and when I say you I mean you all) may not mean it, but that is the way it is interpreted. Whether the fault lies by the speaker or the listener I cannot say. Maybe both.

I edited the quote into the post above. I do not consider it a joke - since I have heard that sentimant REPERATEDLY from Europeans. Chirac even went around saying that America could learn a lot from Europe because Europe "has more experience" than the US and is older. You obviously don't see it the same way - because it's not directed at you.

I don't see it that way because I know FM a little and I think it is a sort of joke he would have said. But I could be wrong of course, and I should perhaps not speak on his behalf. FM, won't you peep in and clear this up for us? And I wouldn't listen too much to what Chirac says, diplomacy isn't his strongest side perhaps?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Artanis
I would feel bad about it, and I would probably point it out wherever I thought people got the wrong idea. But I do not think I would start criticising the criticisers. It just make things worse. That's the difference between us, I think. I don't necessarily think the best way to answer an attack is to attack back.

I'm simpling pointing out the double standard Europe and the world has when it comes to the US and Americans. What would you do? Initially when I first started postingin General messages and partaking in the political discussions a couple of months after I joined - I did say the things that America did and I didn't attack the other countries. But the attacks still came and came and came. So I ask you - would you just turn tail and run - after trying to explain what your country really is like WITHOUT bringing up the short comings of the attacking citizen's country?

And I think what you call the general European attitude is non-existing. Europeans do not dislike America, or Americans, in general. What I think we do resent, is the way Americans talk about their country as it should be superior to other countries. You (and when I say you I mean you all) may not mean it, but that is the way it is interpreted. Whether the fault lies by the speaker or the listener I cannot say. Maybe both.

The thing is we constantly do hear the arrogant attitude from Europe too. The superior culture comments, superior food, the fast food comments. We actually do like our country better than other countries and in our opinion a lot of it is superior. But we don't put your countries down except when people like Chirac say idiotic things like telling the eastern European countries to shout up or risk EU membership (and yes I am perfectly aware that France does not control the EU).


In addition what I saw on French news today just further confirms what I think about France and Germany's relationship. I have no trust for those two countries right now and they are the two of the largest and most influencial countries in Europe.

I have a feeling that Europe and the US will be at each others throats in a few years - if not down right enemies, even while being trading partners. I think we will have a relationship with Europe like we currently have with China if things continue down the road they are going. Maybe it won't even be all of Europe - maybe Europe will be fractured - on one side the Franco/German supporters and on the other the US supporters. I know many in Europe want to ignore this as a possibility - but I don't think it's that impossible. Actually I think as things stand right now - it is very probable. America and Europe is going to have to work VERY hard to prevent this from happening if we don't want to go down this road.

[Eärloth]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
a lot of Americans are getting fed up with the European attitude toward our country and our life. SGH has pointed out many of the things that we hear CONTINUOUSLY from Europe and Europeans.

Have you never noticed that the WORLD thinks Americans are arrogant ? There's a lot of rascism in the world, some of it towards Americans; and I could say that that's because Americans themselves are rascist, and whoever the hell is American in these forums would complain, but judging a particular culture to be rascist is exactly what you're doing with Europeans.

And when did this forum become *about* Americans? Isn't it for discussing the view on Moslems (seeing as how - as I have discovered - several entmoot users are rascist [EDITED]?

Moslems: They are human. Simple as that. There are those who are potentially the nicest people in the world, that's normal, they're just being human. There are those who are potentially the greatest w/nkers in the world, that's normal, they're just being human; and might I also point out that these statistics have no difference whatsoever from anyone else in the world.


Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[Sister Golden Hair]

Orogonally posted by Sween

So how do you feel about Muslims and more importantally how does you nation and media see and show them because if we let this base racism continue we are in for all sorts of problems

The above is the original topic. Please stick to it. Anymore off topic posts, flaming, or country bashing, will result in the closing of this thread.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärloth
Have you never noticed that the WORLD thinks Americans are arrogant ? There's a lot of rascism in the world, some of it towards Americans; and I could say that that's because Americans themselves are rascist, and whoever the hell is American in these forums would complain, but judging a particular culture to be rascist is exactly what you're doing with Europeans.

No I'm not - because my ancestors were European and I have nothing against Europe or Europeans. I just dont' agree with your politics and the constant American bashing that comes from there.

And when did this forum become *about* Americans? Isn't it for discussing the view on Moslems (seeing as how - as I have discovered - several entmoot users are rascist [EDITED]?

Who would those be? becuase I haven't seen anyone who has made RACIST statements. I for one have no problems with Islam, Muslims, or the Middle East - I have a problem with their politics, the hatred toward the west and Jews, and the suicide bombers.

Moslems: They are human. Simple as that. There are those who are potentially the nicest people in the world, that's normal, they're just being human. There are those who are potentially the greatest w/nkers in the world, that's normal, they're just being human; and might I also point out that these statistics have no difference whatsoever from anyone else in the world.

I agree that there are many nice muslims - which I have said repeatedly in my posts. But that doesn't mean that the Middle East isn't one of the most violent places on earth and that the majority of clerics teach hatred in their mosques and in the schools. Sorry if you think that is racist - it's just fact. I have no problems with muslims who WANT peace and I don't mean the ones who say "we want peace - but the jews are evil and must be eliminated"

[Blackheart]

Until humanity conceives a civilization and mindset that is predicated on regarding individuals as individuals, worthy of existing as they are, without being judged by the actions of their neighbors, forefathers, technological achievements, religion, race. or national identity, you are doomed to repeat an age old cycle of violence, suffering, and genocide that has plagued you since your ancestors first realized that there were other people different from them.

I don't think it will happen. In general, humanity is a cancer eating away the earth.

I think A Pogoism is called for. "We have met the orcs, and they are us..."

[Lizra]

Heh! Pogo would make a cute avatar.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I thought some might find this interesting to the topic.

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/arti...&_mpc=news%2e6

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, apparently the link above won't work unless you are an aol member. So I will copy and paste the article.


Updated: 04:55 PM EDT
General Says He'll Tone Down Rhetoric
War on Terror Framed as Religious Battle; 'Enemy Is a Guy Named Satan'
By PAULINE JELINEK, AP

WASHINGTON (Oct. 17) - A top Pentagon general has said he will tone down his rhetoric after being criticized for casting the war on terror as a religious battle, officials said Friday.

But Defense Department lawyers, public affairs officials and others were meeting Friday to try to figure out whether that would be enough to calm the storm of criticism surrounding Army Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin, who has said the counterterror war is a battle with Satan.

His comments came in speeches - some made in uniform - at evangelical Christian churches.

Critics said the remarks could undermine a more than two-year Bush administration effort to promote good relations with Muslims in America, as well as play into the hands of those who have fanned anti-Americanism abroad by casting the counterterror war as an attack on Islam.


"I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol."
-Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin

Boykin, the new deputy undersecretary for intelligence, has told Pentagon officials that he will curtail his speechmaking, officials said. He was expected to issue a written statement Friday.

A decorated veteran of foreign campaigns, the three-star general said of a 1993 battle with a Muslim militia leader in Somalia: "I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol."

He did not respond Thursday to a request for comment.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Thursday he had not seen Boykin's comments, but he praised the three-star general as "an officer that has an outstanding record in the United States armed forces."

Despite repeated questions at a Pentagon press conference, Rumsfeld declined to condemn Boykin's statements or to say whether he would take any action.

Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said he had spoken in uniform at prayer breakfasts, adding he did not think Boykin broke any military rules by giving talks at churches.

"There is a very wide gray area on what the rules permit," Myers said. "At first blush, it doesn't look like any rules were broken."

But Sen. Lincoln D. Chafee, R-R.I., said that if media reports accurately quoted Boykin, the general's comments were deplorable.

And a Muslim rights group called for Boykin to be reassigned from his job, which includes evaluating and providing resources for the intelligence needs of military commanders.

"Putting a man with such extremist views in a critical policy-making position sends entirely the wrong message to a Muslim world that is already skeptical about America's motives and intentions," said Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Awad's statement noted that a verse in the Quran says Muslims believe in the same God as Jews and Christians.

Boykin's church speeches, first reported by NBC News and the Los Angeles Times, cast the war on terrorism as a religious battle between Christians and the forces of evil.

Appearing in dress uniform before a religious group in Oregon in June, Boykin said Islamic extremists hate the United States "because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian. ... And the enemy is a guy named Satan."

Rumsfeld on Thursday repeated the Bush administration position that the war on terrorism is not a war against Islam but against people "who have tried to hijack a religion."

The defense secretary said he could not prevent military officials from making controversial statements.

The Bush administration has gone to some lengths to court Muslim organizations since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks set off the U.S. war on terror. Muslim leaders have been invited to the White House, and President Bush declared late last year that Islam is a peaceful religion, seeking to distance himself from remarks by conservative Christian leaders Pat Robertson and the Rev. Jerry Falwell.


10/17/03 12:00 EDT

Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Blackheart
Until humanity conceives a civilization and mindset that is predicated on regarding individuals as individuals, worthy of existing as they are, without being judged by the actions of their neighbors, forefathers, technological achievements, religion, race. or national identity, you are doomed to repeat an age old cycle of violence, suffering, and genocide that has plagued you since your ancestors first realized that there were other people different from them.

I don't think it will happen. In general, humanity is a cancer eating away the earth.

I think A Pogoism is called for. "We have met the orcs, and they are us..."

I agree, wholeheartedly.

And I'd like to point out (as the last sane person, I think it was, did earlier) that we are all human. We have the power to do the best - and the worst.

So how do you feel about Muslims and more importantally how does you nation and media see and show them because if we let this base racism continue we are in for all sorts of problems

Liking someone shouldn't depend on their nation, religion or colour, it should depend on the person(s).
I like some people because they're nice people, and I dislike others because they aren't. I don't know many muslims (though one of my best friends at my previous school was a muslim; pretty fundamentalistic in his interpretation of the Koran, but a very nice guy), I bet that if I did I'd probably like some of them because they're nice people, and dislike some, because they're not (from my point of view, of course. There's always two sides, two ways of looking at it). And in many situations it's hard to tell the difference, because nice people often become not-so-nice-people when they're attacked.

When we say terrorist, we are mostly refering to the suicide-bombers. But we never ask why these people blow themselves up. We just assume that they are evil people, who have probably done nothing else all their lives than planning how to hurt innocent people. We forget that they are, in fact, human. Many of them have perhaps lost their brother or father or son or daughter or mother or sister in the war. If someone kills your family or your friends, then you stop think rationally. You want revenge. You want them to suffer, as much as you or your friends have done.
Blowing yourself up is a small price to pay for the pain of your enemies.

And it's the same on the other side I guess, the difference being that the Israelis have an army with advanced weapons and use it as a tool to gain revenge instead of suicide-bombings.

It doesn't matter who started it; what matters is who's going to put an end to it. Sadly, I can't see how it can be done.