patriotism

[Falagar]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I actually Have never seen that.

Aww, too bad. (he was in the first one, Dr. No, I believe) I think some Europeans actually get their view on Americans from him.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
Aww, too bad. (he was in the first one, Dr. No, I believe) I think some Europeans actually get their view on Americans from him.

That is what is sad. Europeans get most of their views of America through our fast food places in your countries an our movies and tv shows that show "american life". American life is used very loosely there too. The majority of Americans get their view of Europe from the demonstrators and politicitians and mostly this is when they are speaking out against America.

I think sometimes there is a lack of understanding because we don't always get to talk one on one with each other.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
That is what is sad. Europeans get most of their views of America through our fast food places in your countries an our movies and tv shows that show "american life". American life is used very loosely there too. The majority of Americans get their view of Europe from the demonstrators and politicitians and mostly this is when they are speaking out against America.

I think sometimes there is a lack of understanding because we don't always get to talk one on one with each other.

That would be an excellent idea for a TV-show! European and American politicians/celebrities debating different world-views and illusions we have about each other.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by sun-star
However, Americans do marginalize Europe in the same way.

we sure do. I can state that catagorically as an american. We think we are better then EVERYbody on earth. its just a fact. and if you argue to the contrary we get all upset because how DARE you... Yes Im afraid that IS the american attitude which is understandable considering our national psychology stemming back to our formation. as to people harassing Brits over the whole independence thing I dont really get that but it happens. I mean what year is this? 2003? its just a little pathetic to go on and on teasing a resident of another country because of something that happened about 225 years ago. i mean come on. cant you come up with anything else SINCE then. these people youa re teasing are 8 generations removed! and to whoever made the comment about americans being fat well its true. but its also true for ANY first world nation. we are all getting fatter and fatter. thats why more and more people are having health issues involving weight gain and diabetes and heart problems and such. its no mystery . nor do we really need to knee jerk defend against this statement simply because its made by non americans. its TRUE. we should instead say yeah thats true but it just shows that our society is without want on a higher level then pretty much any other. is that such a bad thing? maybe it is...

[jerseydevil]

Sorry - IR but you don't represent all of America either. So you are just as bad to say "Americans feel this" or "Americans feel that". You may think that Americans in general feel we are better than everyone else- I do not. I think we look at people as being equals and we respect people's differences and individualism more. I never had a problem with Europe or Britain or any other country - until I saw how much they they seem to constantly judge us on everything we do.

If I said Britain was uncultured and their food sucked - there would be many people here who would be offended and go on about how British cuisine is great and list their cultural accomplishments. If something like this or other things are said about Americans and America - we're just supposed to take it.

Defending something with America is not always an attack on another country. Pointing out that those countries also have similar if not the very same problems - is not attacking another country. Pointing out or celebrating our accomplishments is not always putting down another country. Americans don't burn the British flag on the 4th of July - we are simply celebrating a great thing in OUR country - the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

I'm sorry if some people, going by past threads, find our patriotism and self-esteem obnoxious. But that is obviously a problem with them. Our 4th of July, our flags on our houses, my avatar, my flag hanging from my rearview mirror and the celebration of our country in no way diminishes their country's accomplishments or greatness.

Finally - I want you to know my defense of America and the fat comment is not a knee jerk reaction because the person is non-American. I hope you are not implying that. It is true that all successful societies are having a fat problem, as I have said in many past threads for the past 2 years - it's just the US that currently has it more - but only by a couple of percentage points.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Sorry - IR but you don't represent all of America either. So you are just as bad to say "Americans feel this" or "Americans feel that".

ok Ill agree that our opinions are equally as useless in the grand scheme of things.

You may think that Americans in general feel we are better than everyone else- I do not.

No offense but of course you do. and if you REALLY dont well you are sure giving that impression. Perhaps you should simply reflect on that when you react to peoples posts. The one single thing Ive learned in my year or so of posting here with you is that america is number one with you from the start (which is fine by the way). and anything that goes agaisnt america being number one is to be defended with virocity. my lone suggestion would be to digest EACH thing people say and then respond depending on WHAT they say and not SIMPLY that they dont think the same way you do regarding america. I find the people who have the best perspective on events are those who approach each one irrelevant of the other. so if i say hey americans are fat we can say yeah well at least we are the freeist country in the world (and then maybe we can argue about that). But to attack EVERYTHING other people say about america simply for the sake of defending marginilizes your point of view in my opinion. People can simply say oh hes just an american shill and doesnt actually think about what he says.

You are a font of knowledge about many things american. i am always impressed in your little posts about thanksgiving and stuff like that that most non-americans would not know about. THATS the way to open america up to people who have no clue or who may be biased. But WITH that you need to learn to be bigger then some who would out of hand paint america in a simplistic unflattering way. to them i say kiss my fat american a$$ and i laugh. but i dont deny that we are fat or that we use more energy then anyone else or dozen other things that one could say about america. We shouldnt pretend we are perfect. we should simply point out our strengths and POSSIBLE misconceptions (in a non-hostile way).

I never had a problem with Europe or Britain or any other country - until I saw how much they they seem to constantly judge us on everything we do.

ok but keep in mind that makes you sound bitter and jaded now. an american should be above that. thats why americans invented the term "whatever dude"

If I said Britain was uncultured and their food sucked - there would be many people here who would be offended and go on about how British cuisine is great and list their cultural accomplishments.

British cuisine? HA HA HA HA!!! Dont you know british cuisine is a global joke? Ask the brits themselves. Dont get me wrong. I love a get steak and kidney pie as much as anyone. But you can sure bet the french and the italians have much more disdain for british cuisine then we do because we have no clue what british cuisine is really. so if a brith ever says that american food is a joke you can most likely be assured he is being tounge in cheek himself. and if he isnt well burst out laughing in his face and allow the chewed up parts of the big mac you just bit into to shoot in his general direction.

If something like this or other things are said about Americans and America - we're just supposed to take it.

no yer supposed to joke back. and if they get all serious and offended then hey you win. screw them.

Our 4th of July, our flags on our houses, my avatar, my flag hanging from my rearview mirror and the celebration of our country in no way diminishes their country's accomplishments or greatness.

couldnt agree more. and those people who seem threatened by someone waving a flag have issues that are more personal then national in my opinion. No sense blowing up at them. they prove the point that america is a good nation BY saying an american flag is somehow offensive simply because its being waved.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
No offense but of course you do. and if you REALLY dont well you are sure giving that impression. Perhaps you should simply reflect on that when you react to peoples posts. The one single thing Ive learned in my year or so of posting here with you is that america is number one with you from the start (which is fine by the way). and anything that goes agaisnt america being number one is to be defended with virocity.

You don't know my many posts a year and a half ago before you came on board - when I was always being displomatic. That seemed to not work. This new mechanism of posting seems to have been more affective.

It might be hard to believe - but for 6 months on this board - I didn't even use the rolleyes smilie until over and over it was used against me - along with personal attacks. That was at the height of the American bashing threads and posts.

my lone suggestion would be to digest EACH thing people say and then respond depending on WHAT they say and not SIMPLY that they dont think the same way you do regarding america. I find the people who have the best perspective on events are those who approach each one irrelevant of the other. so if i say hey americans are fat we can say yeah well at least we are the freeist country in the world (and then maybe we can argue about that).

I beleive we have argued about the "who is more free" thing. I believe I ticked off Lalaith because I don't consider outlawing political parties and people's speech, like some countries in Europe do - regardless of their outrageous views - as freedom. I also don't think restricting people's religious freedom, as the French are doing with the headscarves and other personal religious garb, is freedom either.

As for the fat. I don't beleive I ever said we weren't fat - I just said we weren't as fat as everyone seems to think. And it disturbs me that I have heard so many say that Americans are just fat and lazy. I was simply using "fat" as an example of what seems to come to mind to outsiders when they think of Americans.

But to attack EVERYTHING other people say about america simply for the sake of defending marginilizes your point of view in my opinion. People can simply say oh hes just an american shill and doesnt actually think about what he says.

When people make outrageoous statements like - "people die outside our hospitals because Americans don't have health care". I will argue. That was actually stated and it is completely untrue. If people say that EVERYONE has a gun and crime is really bad in America - I will argue it. Most of the people in american jails is for MINOR drug charges. It is the blanket statements about America and Americans that get to me.

You are a font of knowledge about many things american. i am always impressed in your little posts about thanksgiving and stuff like that that most non-americans would not know about.

Thank you - although most people don't seem to think my posts are very little. And contrary to Sween's opinions that I post the Constitution too much - I will continue to - because if you don't understand the Constitution - then you can not understand American Government and our way of life.

Also - as I said before - I had posted the "What is your country like..." thread and was suppsoed to foster understanding so people could learn about each other's countries and cities. It actually didn't go very far. I would be VERY interested in hearing what Finland is like, what Britain is like, what Australia is like, and what the cities and towns are like, etc. At least one person on this board knows that I am interested in his country, a country I had no knowledge of before.

[jerseydevil]

THATS the way to open america up to people who have no clue or who may be biased. But WITH that you need to learn to be bigger then some who would out of hand paint america in a simplistic unflattering way. to them i say kiss my fat american a$$ and i laugh. but i dont deny that we are fat or that we use more energy then anyone else or dozen other things that one could say about america. We shouldnt pretend we are perfect. we should simply point out our strengths and POSSIBLE misconceptions (in a non-hostile way).

I have done this, and I have discussed things with others offline. Also I have never pretended or said America was perfect. However, I have said that no country is perfect. I understand Europe's view on Kyoto, and I can accept many people's view on Iraq, but many people seem to be unwilling to look at these issues from the AMERICAN perspective.

But frankly what it boils down to is this - I'm tried of the finger pointing at our country. Take the Iraq war - everyone knows I have supported it, gotten into many heated discussions about it. Bush and AMERICA has been accused of NOT negotiating, not working on peace through diplomatic means. The Iraq war many on this board felt was going to cause a proliferation of countries such as LIBYA to try to aquire WMD as protection against such actions as we took in Iraq. Now we find out yesterday that Bush and Blair have been in secret negotions with Libya since March (during the Iraq war) and Libya has now declared they are giving up their WMD programs. Now I posted this in the Iraq thread. NO ONE who criticized America over Iraq and said that this is just going to make the world more unsafe has even posted anything regarding Libya. No one has said anything regarding it. We caught Saddam Hussein and granted some people posted congratulations on that. It would be nice if in addition to the constant American bashing and Bush bashing that has gone on this board - that it would be nice if they just said something about the huge accomplishment with Libya. French news made two comments that struck me as very bad regarding us and Libya "Americans have Quadaffi eating pie." and "Quadaffi obviously forgot that the Americans bombed his home." These are things that I see on French news as well as on this board that makes me question all of Europe right now and whether it is just some huge contempt for America.

ok but keep in mind that makes you sound bitter and jaded now. an american should be above that. thats why americans invented the term "whatever dude"

It may make me sound bitter and jaded - and I agree it perhaps does - but maybe at this point in time I am rather jaded. Maybe the love I once had for Europe - and yes - hard as it is to believe - I once loved Europe, has been lost. I just can't say I do now. I like it and I like many Europeans, including many on this board, but my respect of Europe was greatly affected 2 years ago during the height of the Anti-American threads.

British cuisine? HA HA HA HA!!! Dont you know british cuisine is a global joke? Ask the brits themselves. Dont get me wrong. I love a get steak and kidney pie as much as anyone. But you can sure bet the french and the italians have much more disdain for british cuisine then we do because we have no clue what british cuisine is really. so if a brith ever says that american food is a joke you can most likely be assured he is being tounge in cheek himself. and if he isnt well burst out laughing in his face and allow the chewed up parts of the big mac you just bit into to shoot in his general direction.

Yes I know it's the global joke and I have had British cuisine in Britain. There is a lot of it that I wouldn't eat. For one thing - I think I know why they cook most of their meat until it's falling apart. But the thing is - no one likes to hear constant bashing of their country. And whether British cuisine is a joke around the world or not - there are other things in British cuisine that aren't that bad - they're just different. As for the French - they just have a stuck up attitude about their cuisine and they don't think anyone's can be superior to theirs.

no yer supposed to joke back. and if they get all serious and offended then hey you win. screw them.

It doesn't work like that with some people.

couldnt agree more. and those people who seem threatened by someone waving a flag have issues that are more personal then national in my opinion. No sense blowing up at them. they prove the point that america is a good nation BY saying an american flag is somehow offensive simply because its being waved.

That may be true - but do you know how mnay people I have heard say that the American flag represents racism, bigotry and genocide?

[Insidious Rex]

When people make outrageoous statements like - "people die outside our hospitals because Americans don't have health care". I will argue.

well ok but people with extremely painful and/or dangerous conditions languish for 6-7-8 hours or more in our emergency waiting rooms. Many give up and go home. It shouldn’t be like that in my opinion. Our health care system has serious issues. But I guess that’s a topic for another day.

These are things that I see on French news as well as on this board that makes me question all of Europe right now and whether it is just some huge contempt for America.

I find its best to approach bias and ignorance with a sense of humor and a straight honest approach regarding EACH particular issue. It keeps people on their heels and fractures their stereotypes.

As for the French - they just have a stuck up attitude about their cuisine and they don't think anyone's can be superior to theirs.

this is true. Of course I think they have a point when they say French cuisine is pretty good. They are certainly a stuck up lot but there may be some weight behind this attitude. Cant deny that.

That may be true - but do you know how mnay people I have heard say that the American flag represents racism, bigotry and genocide?

that’s when you say without a hitch (and without a hint of disdain in your reply) that its great they feel that way but it actually represents their RIGHT to hold that opinion about it. So it must obviously be working.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
well ok but people with extremely painful and/or dangerous conditions languish for 6-7-8 hours or more in our emergency waiting rooms. Many give up and go home. It shouldn’t be like that in my opinion. Our health care system has serious issues. But I guess that’s a topic for another day.

Yeah - I think there is the old "Health Care" thread or a thread that ended up being about health care in the US. It was during the height of the anti-american thread and was basically how terrible our system is and how much better Canada's and Europe's is.

this is true. Of course I think they have a point when they say French cuisine is pretty good. They are certainly a stuck up lot but there may be some weight behind this attitude. Cant deny that.

Yeah - it is pretty good. I cook french food- Chircken Cordon Bleu, as well as Cornish Hens a l'Orange. But really - a good roast, Veal Parmigiana or a chinese dish are very good too. They're just different and French food isn't any more difficult to make, Californian wines have been beating out french wines in key categories lately. So - I don't think their attitude is warranted.

By the way - here is my recipe for Cornish Hens a l'Orange...

Ingredients:
3 hens
1 16oz pkg wild rice
1 4oz can mushrooms
1t finely shredded orange peel
1/4 cup orange peel
3T brown sugar
3T corn starch
2/3 cup water
1/2 cup orange juice
1/2t instant chicken boullion
1T margarine

Recipe:
Prepare the orange peels by slicing away the inside of the orange peel. You should be left with only the outer covering of the orange peel. The inside white area is very sour and should be completely removed.

Cook rice adding the mushrooms and shredded orange peel.

Split cornish hens in half. Stuff each half with the rice mixture and place in a baking dish; rice down. Place a slab of margarine on each half. Cook at 350 until browned and tender. The hens should not be pink on the inside.

Slice the 1/4 cup orange peels into julienne strips. Add the sliced orange peel, the brown sugar, corn starch, water, orange juice and the chicken boullion.

Slowly simmer the mixture and stir constantly until the corn starch and sugar are completely disolved.
Raise the temperature of the sauce until bubbles start to appear and then lower again. The sauce should thicken and become a glistening orange color.

Remove the hens from the oven when done and place one half on a plate. Spoon some orange sauce over the hen and serve!

Slightly off topic - but I figured I'd share it so people knew that I'm not talking frozen tv dinner here.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
[B]Well we sort of did. We also did rebuild Europe, as well as Germany and Japan (our enemies). /[B]

It doesn't matter whether it's true or not - of course it is, and we're very grateful. But some Americans say "we saved you in the war" like it can end every argument. It's like if someone gives you a great Christmas present, and for the rest of your life, every time you criticise them for something, they say "well yeah, but I did give you a good present fifty years ago". It just gets tiring, that's all.

Well that's just plain funny.

It's funny in the same way that "the colonies" is funny. It's basically the same joke, in fact. And I know you had a smilie there - but it seems like one is a joke to you and the other is prejudice.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
It doesn't matter whether it's true or not - of course it is, and we're very grateful. But some Americans say "we saved you in the war" like it can end every argument. It's like if someone gives you a great Christmas present, and for the rest of your life, every time you criticise them for something, they say "well yeah, but I did give you a good present fifty years ago". It just gets tiring, that's all.

It isn't just that though. It's also rebuilding your societies and then protecting Europe for all those years from the Soviet Union. Lately there have been posts indicating that Europe didn't even need America to enter the war now. Before that is was that we didn't enter soon enough.

You might want to think about how many sacrifices you have made for America's freedom and how many sacrifices America has made for Europe's. How many wars did Europe come to the aid of America and defend us? How many European soldiers died on American soil? Now look at how many American soldiers have died on European soil and how many American soldiers have been stationed in Europe to defend you from the Soviet Union. How many Americans died in the war against Meloshevic? Now the thanks we get for all this is - "You didn't get into the war right away." and our flag burned on European streets and our fast food restaurants ransacked.

We have continued to spend money on Europe time and again - such as with the war in Bosnia. Much of Europe seems to be ignorant or just refuse to acknowledge all the stuff that the US does for their protection.

Look at the anti-American ferver in Germany. Schroeder even ran on anti-American rhetoric. Then look at all we did for Germany after WWII (an enemy at that) and through the Cold War and then with the reunification. Now the majority of their population seems to hate us and feels that we are the biggest detriment to world peace? To me that seems a bit ingrateful - especially since the reunification was less than 20 years ago.

It's funny in the same way that "the colonies" is funny. It's basically the same joke, in fact. And I know you had a smilie there - but it seems like one is a joke to you and the other is prejudice.

Not really because the times that I have heard "the colonies" it has been with a tone of great distain and superiority.

One of our reasons for our patriotism though - is because we fought and won our freedom from the greatest military power of the time with VERY LITTLE help. We also then protected that freedom again when Britain tried to retake the US during the war of 1812.

[Bombadillo]

Originally posted by Falagar
According to some statistics I found in a newpaper, 60% of all americans weight too much. Can you enlighten me wether this is true or not?

I would if I wasn't so lazy.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Bombadillo
I would if I wasn't so lazy.

Don't encourage them.

[Hemel]

Oh I'm sure we are all grateful, JD It's my understanding that Winston Churchill, after Pearl Harbor, said that that night he would rest easy in his bed for the first time, because he knew then that the US would be entering the war. I understand also that there were US people who did think that you over there should have come into the war sooner, and that there were US people who voluntarily came over here before the US officially entered and did fight.

There is only one thing I'd ask - and that is that JD said on another thread that the US as a state acts in its own interests. Understandable, but I just wondered ... how much of this thought influenced what the US was doing in Europe? Were our benefits to a certain extent side effects ....

Now I'm not a political scientist, and my knowledge of the history of that time is cursory, so that is a genuine question. I'd welcome comments from anyone who knows more than I do

Oh, another question too, which I've been wondering. To what extent do you people over there consider Britain part of Europe?

[The Gaffer]

This is an interesting read about the America/Europe thing.

Here are some random contributions:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I would still like to see a more detailed poll about Europes overall attitude toward America. What do they think we eat, etc. How many Europeans think that what we eat is the fast food crap?

European attitudes towards American culture are, as you pointed out, primarily based on the experience they have had of it. If you haven't been there, it'll be based on what you get through the media and contact with American businesses in Europe. When you look at American restaurants around Europe, they are mostly burger joints. In American films, teenagers are always hanging out in burger joints. So there's a cultural stereotype which associates America with burger joints just like there's a cultural stereotype that associates Indians with curry and Scots with kilts.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I think sometimes there is a lack of understanding because we don't always get to talk one on one with each other.

I would agree with that, though often it doesn't seem to help much...

Originally posted by sun-star
It's funny in the same way that "the colonies" is funny. It's basically the same joke, in fact. And I know you had a smilie there - but it seems like one is a joke to you and the other is prejudice.

Yeah. No-one ever uses that term here, except to have a laugh with an American (who I'd expect to come back with stuff about kicking our tea into the harbour and our asses out of the country).

Actually, I've had experience similar to the situation you described, JD. An American friend of mine was visiting my home town, and my so-called mates gave him a roasting in the pub as if every US foreign policy was his personal fault. Needless to say, they weren't my mates after that. That was very immature and prejudiced behaviour. I acknowledge that these attitudes do exist in on this side of the Atlantic.

One thing we are forgetting are the political differences between America and Europe. America values individualism and laissez-faire government where Europe has more of a collectivist, interventionist instinct. These two ideas pull our respective cultures in opposite directions some of the time.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You might want to think about how many sacrifices you have made for America's freedom and how many sacrifices America has made for Europe's. How many wars did Europe come to the aid of America and defend us? How many European soldiers died on American soil? Now look at how many American soldiers have died on European soil and how many American soldiers have been stationed in Europe to defend you from the Soviet Union. How many Americans died in the war against Meloshevic? Now the thanks we get for all this is - "You didn't get into the war right away." and our flag burned on European streets and our fast food restaurants ransacked.

The thanks you get is people saying thank you, which we do. If the thanks you expect is unquestioning obedience from Europe until the end of time, I'm afraid you'll have a long wait.

the times that I have heard "the colonies" it has been with a tone of great distain and superiority.

It's in a tone of disdain that Americans tell me that they crushed my country 200 years ago. Sorry, but either both are funny, or both are insulting - it doesn't make sense that one's OK because it's your patriotic joke and the other's not because it's someone else's.

Anyway, I'm going to take a break from Entmoot for a while. This discussion isn't going anywhere for me. Merry Christmas

[Gwaimir Windgem]

JD, people often use tones like that when they're joking. I know I do.

[Hemel]

Forgot to mention - I won't be around for a while now because of Christmas. Lots of friends/relations from various places coming in (and yes, just in case you're wondering, JD, some from the States )

But I'll read everything here when I get back. I find this an interesting discussion

And in the meantime - the very best wishes to everyone, for this particular season.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Hemel
Oh I'm sure we are all grateful, JD It's my understanding that Winston Churchill, after Pearl Harbor, said that that night he would rest easy in his bed for the first time, because he knew then that the US would be entering the war. I understand also that there were US people who did think that you over there should have come into the war sooner, and that there were US people who voluntarily came over here before the US officially entered and did fight.

Yes - some did fight. The US government was also supplying equipment to Britain. But the majority of Americans at the time felt it was a European problem that they had to take care of. Come on - 20 years later you are another MAJOR war with the very same country you had just signed a treaty with? Do you understand why Americans wouldn't want to be too fast to jump into the fray?

There is only one thing I'd ask - and that is that JD said on another thread that the US as a state acts in its own interests. Understandable, but I just wondered ... how much of this thought influenced what the US was doing in Europe? Were our benefits to a certain extent side effects ....

Now I'm not a political scientist, and my knowledge of the history of that time is cursory, so that is a genuine question. I'd welcome comments from anyone who knows more than I do

A lot of it was because of our self interests. If Europe went communist - which was very possible if they didn't get rebuilt quickly - then we would have been against a much great Soviet Union and lost major trading partners. I don't deny that a lot of it was in our self interest, but it also doesn't reduce the help we have given through the years.

Oh, another question too, which I've been wondering. To what extent do you people over there consider Britain part of Europe?

I think everyone knows that Britain is part of Europe - but not part of CONTINENTAL Europe. Britain is a part of the EU - but has not converted to the Euro. I think because of the English Channel - Britain is very different than the rest of Europe.