Holocaust Denial

[Captain Stern]

Actually I'd like to retract the first two sentences of my last post. Entmooters are as human as anyone else. You're not suggesting that germans in the 30's and 40's were inherentely evil or anything like that are you? Certain people here may not have reached the heights of ignorance of those ordinary germans who sold out their fellow country men in Germany long ago, but it's people of that kind of thinking who are ripe for carrying out such a persecution. I believe that ignorance really is the root of all evil. I see it all around. That may not make you comfortable, but I won't dillute my oppinions just to please people.

[Lotesse]

More true colours! People who take on the game of playing devil's advocate always run the risk of being mistaken for the devil themselves. You gotta pay 2 play; isn't that right Stern?

[Captain Stern]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

More true colours! People who take on the game of playing devil's advocate always run the risk of being mistaken for the devil themselves. You gotta pay 2 play; isn't that right Stern?

Yet more rebuttals without any evidence to back them up.

What exactly are these true colours that you see? I play Devil's advocate and, since the subject in question is a sensitive one, you can find no other conclusion that I myself am the devil.

Personally, I think you're the one who's shown her true colours by resorting to anger (which has no place in any discussion) then not apologizing for it, and resorting (for popular effect no doubt) to reffering to one who you disagree with as 'that one', something which I myself find quite pompous.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

Actually I'd like to retract the first two sentences of my last post. Entmooters are as human as anyone else. You're not suggesting that germans in the 30's and 40's were inherentely evil or anything like that are you? Certain people here may not have reached the heights of ignorance of those ordinary germans who sold out their fellow country men in Germany long ago, but it's people of that kind of thinking who are ripe for carrying out such a persecution.

The Nazis lost all regard for human life. They were willing to brutalize unarmed innocents and commit atrocities that have astounded most of mankind. Comparing Entmooters to people who gave up their humanity to become monsters is extremely inappropriate.

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

I believe that ignorance really is the root of all evil.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

I see it all around. That may not make you comfortable, but I won't dillute my oppinions just to please people.

Suppose someone is an ignorant persecutor. What is calling that person an ignorant persecutor likely to improve?

[Captain Stern]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The Nazis lost all regard for human life. They were willing to brutalize unarmed innocents and commit atrocities that have astounded most of mankind. Comparing Entmooters to people who gave up their humanity to become monsters is extremely inappropriate.

I wasn't comparing them to nazis, but to the ordinary german people who turned on their jewish neighbours.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Suppose someone is an ignorant persecutor. What is calling that person an ignorant persecutor likely to improve?

So we should just pussyfoot around these bullies because it might not improve anything? Isn't identifying and then standing up against an ignorant persecutor the first step in combating him?


God, I hate internet arguments.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

Personally, I think you're the one who's shown her true colours by resorting to anger (which has no place in any discussion) then not apologizing for it, and resorting (for popular effect no doubt) to reffering to one who you disagree with as 'that one', something which I myself find quite pompous.

I'm not angry, I'm at this point both disgusted and amused, quite frankly. You entirely missed the point of my anger from yesterday, obviously, as you are now calling both me and Hobbit, and who knows who else in this thread, to be: ignorant, akin to the Germans who ignored the Jewish suffering, a persecutor, a mob inciter, AND "the type of person who causes tragedies such as the holocaust to happen." WHY? Because I and others stepped up in this thread and voiced real concern and indignation at the subject of the Holocaust as "perhaps never having happened to play devil's advocate" to be a pointless and potentially hurtful discussion, and to be also very, very insulting to each and every human being who has been directly or indirectly hurt by Hitler. And I speak out and say this is not a subject to toy around with and play "what-if" pointless parlour-talk games about, and you call ME ignorant? That just boggles the mind. Are you even aware of how ignorant that makes YOU come across as? No offense meant, I'm just speaking frankly here.

Oh, and how am I going to "apologise" for speaking my mind yesterday? You yourself say that you "won't dillute my oppinions just to please people." Great! By all means, don't! But don't expect everyone else to bow in deference to your viewpoints when you can't show them the same respect you demand for yourself.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

Before I begin let me just say that from the evidence I've seen I think the Holocaust did indeed happen and that I think it was as awful, horrible and tragic as anyone here thinks it was. I'm also a firm believer in the lesson that we who forget what history tell's us are doomed to repeat it. However I find it disheartening but also typical that those who can't know the whole truth believe in the absloutes that they've been taught to believe in. If you weren't at the death camps yourself to witness what happened then you can't flatly proclaim that the holocaust happened and subsequently denounce those who question the event as bigots, anti semites or criminals. What would happen to society if we weren't allowed to question the events of history? We are urged to question all knowledge yet, almost uniquely, if you question the authenticity of the holocaust you're guaranteed to be labelled those names that I mentioned earlier. Isn't that suspicious in itself?

With all the wealth of intelligence and recources at the disposal of so many organizations in the world is it really so inconceivable that an event such as the holocaust could have been faked? Bear in mind also that for a people who's population is so small, the Jewish people are EXTREMELY prolific and talented. You need only search on the internet.

THIS opening statement that you made here, Stern, is what got my antennae up, because you come across quite clearly as someone who is not necessarily playing devil's advocate, but as someone who genuinely believes that the Holocaust could have been faked. VERY, very disturbing, to say the least. You sound pretty sincere here. It could be said that it is YOU who are acting as an instigator and mob-rallier, encouraging others to entertain the idea that the Holocaust may never have happened. THAT is chilling.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

But don't expect everyone else to bow in deference to your viewpoints when you can't show them the same respect you demand for yourself.

That's it exactly. That is a key reason why "turning the other cheek" is so positive. It comes down to, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." One doesn't have to be a Christian to see that this makes sense. If one doesn't like experiencing personal attacks or name calling, and if one thinks that one who does such things is a persecutor or at the very least a nasty or uncouth bloke, then one should not do it oneself! It's that simple. Though, of course, it's not simple in practice, because it's not easy. It is worthwhile to strive to meet that ideal though, I think. Showing others the respect one wants for oneself is important to getting agreement. It doesn't always work, but it's just all around good . I think.

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

So we should just pussyfoot around these bullies because it might not improve anything? Isn't identifying and then standing up against an ignorant persecutor the first step in combating him?

There is more than one way of standing up. Taking a blow without retaliating takes more strength than slinging one in retaliation. It is better in a number of ways.

It gives public support to the victim by making the situation black and white to most people. Retaliating makes the whole dispute more gray. Non-retaliation makes the rightness of the victim's cause much less deniable. It also enables a person to recognize that the bullies are people rather than enemies, and that respect and perspective are important for anyone. Like Lotesse said, if one does not respect others, it's hard to get them to respect you. And if you respect them in response for their not respecting you, then others will respect you all the more, because you have shown strength when it is most difficult and have left room for peace and reconciliation.

[HOBBIT]

It is clear that this topic cannot continue the way that is going. This has turned into a flame fest now. Feel free to PM me with any questions or comments. Whatever Lief intended by this topic - this clearly is not it.

As I am closing this, a few of you are currently replying - I'm sorry about that. Feel free to PM me what you were going to post in this topic if I closed it before you got a chance to hit reply.