Iraqis Forgive Americans

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
No what I said in one of my previous post was... there is no such thing as a war criminal, it just wasn't limited to the Axis powers in WWII.

That isn't what you said - this is what you said...

What is a war criminal? Was not war itself a crime against God and humanity, and, therefore, were not all those who sanctioned, engineered,and conducted wars, war criminals?

That is NOT stating that you think that there are war criminals on both sides of a war. You're stating that ANYONE who fights or partakes or conducts a war is a war criminal because war ITSELF is a crime against god and humanity.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Fenir - the thing is BOTH were European wars. As for your comment regarding World War II - we were SUPPLYING munitions and so forth to the allies for a long time. The American public was 70% AGAINST getting involved in the World War II - we already had 100,000+ men die in World War I. That was, as you just point out, only 20 years between the two.

As for the US isolationist policy - no one denies America's isolationist policy of the past - as a matter of fact - we learn about it in history believe it or not. After World War II - we realized that the Europeans were incompentent at keeping the peace between them - and that we could not be isolationsist anymore. So unlike in World War I - where we developed the League of Nations - but then didn't join, this time we created the United Nations and did join.

You complain that we're isolationist, then you complain that we're all over the world. At least we ARE doing something about the Middle East - unlike the European attitude - that if you ignore it - it will go away - just like they did in World War II. How many years my dear fenir was Hitler building his armies, setting up his camps, taking land and countries - before Europe bothered to lift a finger. Before you point at us for not doing anything right away - when we didn't have to anything to help - maybe you should ask what you gusy did to help yourself first.

Obvouisly to you - the 400,000+ AMERICANS who died during World War II - doesn't mean anything.

Oh and another thing - my grandfather supposedly fought in BOTH your damn wars. He supposedly lied about his age to get into World War I.

Also you seem to forget that until basically a short time before World War I - we were NOT a allies or friends with Britain. Britain ACTIVELY supported the south during the Civil War only 50 years before.

As for the French - 1/3 supported German occupation, 1/3 didn't care about the German occupation and ONLY 1/3 actively tried to help overthrow the Gemans.

Evidently you, 'sir', are using the American Abridged Version. I note that you gloss over the fact that America sold arms to BOTH sides, not just the Allied side that you pointed out.

Regardless, if we are talking about our grandfathers, mine so rightly pointed out in the House of Commons in 1944 that we were supplying the Americans with very nearly what they were supplying us with. We financed your North African Expeditionary Force. We allowed you to use Britain's Royal Air Force Bases. In 1944, we had contributed £155,000,000 to the American war effort and that was the sum in 1944- significantly more accountng for inflation. And, let us not forget, were it not for our victory in the Battle of Britain I have no doubt that America would be subjugated now.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
Evidently you, 'sir', are using the American Abridged Version. I note that you gloss over the fact that America sold arms to BOTH sides, not just the Allied side that you pointed out.

The US government did NOT sell weaponry and supplies to Hitler. Where did you get this information from?

Regardless, if we are talking about our grandfathers, mine so rightly pointed out in the House of Commons in 1944 that we were supplying the Americans with very nearly what they were supplying us with. We financed your North African Expeditionary Force. We allowed you to use Britain's Royal Air Force Bases. In 1944, we had contributed £155,000,000 to the American war effort and that was the sum in 1944- significantly more accountng for inflation.

Wow - you supported OUR war effort to save your asses - wow how nice of you to do that for us. It must have been really hard decision to allow us to use your airbaes while Britain had Germany at it's doorstep.

However - britain did NOTHING to help us against japan let me remind you. we were fighting TWO major enemies - how many ships did Britain have in the Pacific? Did Britain fight Japan AFTER Hitler was defeated?

And, let us not forget, were it not for our victory in the Battle of Britain I have no doubt that America would be subjugated now.

let me remind you that without the US entering the war Britain wouldn't exist now - nor would any of the countries in Europe as they stand today.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Dropping of the atomic bomb was to save the lives of many more thousands. There were THREE warnings telling the japanese to surrender - they chose not to. They made their choose when they chose to surprise attack Pearl Harbor. Nagasaki and Harosimo were also BOTH military cities - they were not just civilians - but they were manufacturing weaponry for the Japanese army. Many millions died in the overthrow of Germany.

It's funny how you say that the countries who let Hitler start up his concentration camps are just as guilty of war crimes - then I guess the countries, such as France who wanted to let Hussein continue his execution and torture - are just as guilty of war crimes. or are you saying that Hitler's only mistake was invading other countries - but as long asa he just killed the jews within Germany - it was okay and we should not have fought him.

You are putting words in my mouth. Please stop making ridiculous assumptions... And when you will you get my point. How can you label someone a war criminal when both sides are killing each other. There is no such thing as a war criminal in my opinion. It doesn't matter where Hitler killed the jews either way it was wrong. But Allied powers labeled the Axis Powers as war criminals even tho the Allies hands were covered in blood. (Please comprehend my post fully before posting, I think we may be having some misunderstandings)

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
The US government did NOT sell weaponry and supplies to Hitler. Where did you get this information from?

Wow - you supported OUR war effort to save your asses - wow how nice of you to do that for us. It must have been really hard decision to allow us to use your airbaes while Britain had Germany at it's doorstep.

However - britain did NOTHING to help us against japan let me remind you. we were fighting TWO major enemies - how many ships did Britain have in the Pacific? Did Britain fight Japan AFTER Hitler was defeated?

On the contrary, we gave you time after Pearl Harbour to get your armour on and to recover from the immediate impact. We bought you a vital few weeks.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
On the contrary, we gave you time after Pearl Harbour to get your armour on and to recover from the immediate impact. We bought you a vital few weeks.

Wow - a couple of few weeks - how GENEROUS of you - while 400,000 Americans died in World War II and fought for 4 years - you gave us all of a FEW weeks help with japan after Pearl Harbor. You think it wasn't in your best interest there?

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
That isn't what you said - this is what you said...



That is NOT stating that you think that there are war criminals on both sides of a war. You're stating that ANYONE who fights or partakes or conducts a war is a war criminal because war ITSELF is a crime against god and humanity.

Yes, now lets complete the thought if NEITHER SIDE IS INNOCENT, why label the one side as "war crimminals". Its foolish and biased of the Allied Powers.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
...But Allied powers labeled the Axis Powers as war criminals even tho the Allies hands were covered in blood...

Just curious Ragnarok... are you a pacifist? Do you think countries in the path of Axis armies should have just set aside their weapons and opened their arms to them? Do you think something other than what came about was the best way to handle Germany, Italy and Japan?

[QueenAnnesLace]

Seriously, I really do want to know what book or source people from the UK, Aus., and europeans in general get their history lessons about anything that has to do with the U.S.A., and its involvements in world issues. There just seem to be be so many inconsistancies on so many different issues. For someone to make statements based on facts from one source to another is one thing but it seems there is a lot of so called 'facts' that are really no more than someones messed up twisted theories.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Wow - a couple of few weeks - how GENEROUS of you - while 400,000 Americans died in World War II and fought for 4 years - you gave us all of a FEW weeks help with japan after Pearl Harbor. You think it wasn't in your best interest there?

[FLAMEBAIT DELETED] You just don't understand, you are bogged down in the quiddities and minutiae. What I am trying to say is that we provided you with as much as you provided us with, and, by the way, a Nazi controlled Europe was no good to you, either, so it was in YOUR damn interest that the Allied side won!

Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
You are putting words in my mouth. Please stop making ridiculous assumptions... And when you will you get my point. How can you label someone a war criminal when both sides are killing each other. There is no such thing as a war criminal in my opinion. It doesn't matter where Hitler killed the jews either way it was wrong. But Allied powers labeled the Axis Powers as war criminals even tho the Allies hands were covered in blood. (Please comprehend my post fully before posting, I think we may be having some misunderstandings)

NOT all people during World War II on the Axis side were War Criminals - it was what they did that determined if they were war criminals. Droppinig the bomb was not a war crime - because it was an offensive maneuver in a war to end it and the cities were legitimate military targets.

I get what you said in the first thing you said - where you stated that war itself is a crime and therefore anyone that partakes in war is a war criminal. This is NOT the case and that seems to be the reasoning behind all your arguments here - even in terms of using the atomic bomb, which as I stated was not a war crime.

And I agree and disagree with your current statement that are no war criminal. War is hell - and innocent people die. There is a difference in killing millions of millions of people on purpose though, the jews, gypsies, homosexuals, men,women and children all brought to the gas chambers, experimented on, stripped and shot, made to dig their own graves. Sorry - those weren't just war crimes - they were the action of animals.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
Yes, now lets complete the thought if NEITHER SIDE IS INNOCENT, why label the one side as "war crimminals". Its foolish and biased of the Allied Powers.

The one side was NOT all labeled war criminals - other than in terms of what they were doing with the concentration camps.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
NOT all people during World War II on the Axis side were War Criminals - it was what they did that determined if they were war criminals. Droppinig the bomb was not a war crime - because it was an offensive maneuver in a war to end it and the cities were legitimate military targets.

I get what you said in the first thing you said - where you stated that war itself is a crime and therefore anyone that partakes in war is a war criminal. This is NOT the case and that seems to be the reasoning behind all your arguments here - even in terms of using the atomic bomb, which as I stated was not a war crime.

And I agree and disagree with your current statement that are no war criminal. War is hell - and innocent people die. There is a difference in killing millions of millions of people on purpose though, the jews, gypsies, homosexuals, men,women and children all brought to the gas chambers, experimented on, stripped and shot, made to dig their own graves. Sorry - those weren't just war crimes - they were the action of animals.

Good grief, and what nation would stoop to torturing prisoners, I wonder? America, perhaps, recently, in Iraq?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
Good grief, and what nation would stoop to torturing prisoners, I wonder? America, perhaps, recently, in Iraq?

AMERICA did NOT torture or abuse the prisoners in Iraq. And unlikeother countries - those - those soldiers are being brought to justice. So don't act like it was AMERICA who abused them.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Valandil
Just curious Ragnarok... are you a pacifist? Do you think countries in the path of Axis armies should have just set aside their weapons and opened their arms to them? Do you think something other than what came about was the best way to handle Germany, Italy and Japan?

Yes, I'm a pacifist, however WWII was a direct result of the Treaty of Versailles which was made at the end of WWI. It punished Germany and stripped away alot of land from Germany and Russia. That is why Hitler invaded areas that was once German soil. His excuse was there was German people living under a different flag. And second of, if people weren't so ignorant and read Hitler's book Mein Kampf, I don't think Europe would have been suprised by the Blitzkreig. After Hitler started his invasion did people start reading his book, which contained his plans for Europe. And I don't know what would have been the best way to have handled the Axis Powers. Hitler had to be stopped so the war was inevtiable. However, calling the Axis Powers "war criminals" is stupid in my opinion because both sides were killing human beings.

[Radagast]

What other countries? Britain's torture photos were proved to be fake, there is no need to bring them to justice they have not done anything. Nazis were tried.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
[FLAMEBAIT DELETED] You just don't understand, you are bogged down in the quiddities and minutiae. What I am trying to say is that we provided you with as much as you provided us with, and, by the way, a Nazi controlled Europe was no good to you, either, so it was in YOUR damn interest that the Allied side won!

A sI have many times said - it was in our own self interest. But you act like you were doing us a favor by letting us use your air bases and so forth. Roosevelt understoof long before that Germany winning would have been disasterous for America - but the American people didn't want to see that. As it stands - if Europe had taken action BEFORE hitler became so powerful - instead of appeasing him and going so far as handing over Czechoslovakia to him - then World War II could have been prevented or at the very least not so bloody.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
What other countries? Britain's torture photos were proved to be fake, there is no need to bring them to justice they have not done anything. Nazis were tried.

I wasn't talking about Britain or the Iraq War in that statement. I was making a general statement about countries advocating the torture of prisoners - which you are implying is what America did - and we DID NOT.

And the soldiers and officers in the prison avbuse are being tried too - which is a lot more than what nazi germany did - since they ADVOCATED the death and torture of millions.

[Radagast]

Chill.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
Chill.

You and others stop and think about what you say about America and Americans - and I will chill. Instead you just throw out accusations and statements out that have no basis in fact - like implying that America advocated the abuse of the prisoners.

You can have a problem with the war - but that isn't the problem with you and Fenir - instead you both just have a general contempt for America and Americans. That must be why you keep misrepresenting the prison abuse as an US sanctioned policy - even though even before the pictures came out there was a 1500 page report and it was already being investigated and dealt with.