04-08-2006, 05:36 PM | #961 | |
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04-09-2006, 01:19 AM | #962 | ||
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Sorry for skipping posts, there's a lot of activity in here.
I do not understand the Islam is a violent religion sentiment expressed by some in this thread. Islam is violent because their founder of 1500 years ago waged war on another people (I think Muhammed did that)? I think this has more to do with the cultural aspect of Islam than religious, but regardless, this does not stand up to scrutiny. Time for "Choose your own adventure in the Muslims thread"! (This is for anyone who cares to respond. ) If you believe that Islam is violent because of some of Muhammed's actions, go to page 1. If you do not believe this, go to page 2. Page 1 Do you then believe that Judaism and Christianity are also violent religion? I mean, God told Moses to make those idol worshipping people drink melted gold. Even children! This undoubtably would have killed any who suffered this punishmemt. This is but one of a number of violent events in the Old Testament, yet Judaism and Christianity are not considered violent religions. Or are they? Page 2 Do you feel that Islam is violent for reasons other than Muhammed's actions? Or perhaps you do not think it is violent at all. Personally I think some Muslims are violent, but Islam is not violent. This is an important distinction.
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04-09-2006, 01:53 AM | #963 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Apologies in advance for a very long, very rambling post
I don't know anything about the history of Islam, or the history of Christianity...but I think it is a strange basis to use to judge the character of any religion. The way a religion is practiced, like anything else, can evolve over time. If the concept of Jihad as a spiritual battle is more referable to the modern practice of Islam than to the religion's history...does this really matter, if it is the interpretation that the majority of Muslims today choose to accept? Quote:
In any case, if variation is what has in fact happened, I do not think it makes sense to judge a religion based on history Sorry – I don’t mean to be critical, so I hope it doesn’t come across that way – this line of reasoning genuinely confuses me (and I think it may be more because I am missing something than because of a flaw in your reasoning) Quote:
I know very little about the rise of Islamic extremism, (and am hoping that someone else does – and please correct me if I say anything wrong!)…but from the little that I have read, in Afghanistan at least, during the Soviet Wars, the population suffered from high levels of poverty and appalling education levels – and the only places which poor families could afford to get their sons educated was in private madrassas, which were driven and sponsored by groups in the upper echelons of society, like the JUI. The JUI grew out of a fundamentalist Islamic school (the Deobandi school), but it became very politicised and factionalised rather than purely religious. Many of the madrassas in rural areas (eg the Haqqania madrassa, which many of the Taliban attended) had mullahs who were semi-educated, and quite far-removed from the original religious agenda of the Deobandi school. The Taliban’s rise to power was more the result of political factors than religious belief in Afghanistan. After the Soviet Wars, Afghanistan was flung into civil war, and the Taliban was seen as a force which could bring order to the region. They spread using military force, and eventually gained control of Afghanistan. Religious extremists – yes, but their rise to power was political, and even their religious education was influenced by political factors, and was not ‘pure’. There are extremist groups in all societies, and in all religions probably – but when they gain widespread power and/or influence, it is usually the result of social factors, and the case of Afghanistan is no different. It is also worth noting that the Taliban (or indeed any group before them, I think?) never enjoyed widespread support in Afghanistan. The region is extremely fragmented, there are many different religious (strands of Islam?) & ethnic groups, and historically, different groups have fared differently under different leaders. As a result, there is always discontent, and political unstability. It seems unfair to make generalisations about Islam based on who is in power, or who has been in power, in this context. I have mentioned only Afghanistan as an example because I know absolutely nothing about the rise of modern radicalism in any other Middle Eastern country. I am not sure how al Qaeda developed – I believe it had something to do with the Soviet Wars Quote:
But Islamic hostility towards the West has increased exponentially since the wars on Afghanistan and, particularly Iraq, and we begin to see signs of hostility within the Islamic populations in Western nations, and I think this is attributable to a perceived Western attack on Islam. I know that the increase in Western hostility itself was largely a response to 9/11; I am not trying to argue who ‘started it’. I was just agreeing with Serenoli, who pointed out that if there are more ‘violent interpretations’ of Islam around at the moment, then this probably due to a perceived threat to the religion from the West Quote:
The difference is the scale of the ‘assualt’, I suppose. Disparaging comments about Christians (or ‘lilly livered liberals’, I suppose ) are made by intolerant individuals…but there is no large scale threat or attempt to ‘destroy’ either. Given the political and military power of the US and its allies, and given that Islam is only practiced by a relatively small minority of people in most Western countries, I guess some Muslims feel differently. Nurv, I am on page 2, and agree with you! |
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04-09-2006, 12:02 PM | #964 | |
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04-09-2006, 12:18 PM | #965 | |||
An enigma in a conundrum
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04-09-2006, 01:34 PM | #966 |
Elf Lord
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Spock, we need to reply to arguments, not try to disqualify people from speaking! I'm very glad elfearz and Nurvingiel are posting on this thread, and find their posts very interesting, as I do yours .
None of us are experts in Middle East affairs, but we're just contributing what we do know to explain our views .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-09-2006 at 02:40 PM. |
04-09-2006, 02:16 PM | #967 | |||
Elf Lord
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In any case, I certainly wasn't criticising anyone's view on the content of Islamic or Christian history, which is what I admittedly know nothing about. I was expressing doubts about the value of using history as a basis for judging a religion as exists in today's context Quote:
I used the example of Afghanistan because it is the one situation I know anything about; but I am fully aware that I only know the tiniest percentage about Afghani politics & history. So I concede that the specific examples I can offer in support of this point are, at present, limited, but I thought the point was worth raising I'd love to hear how Lief, and you, and others would respond, because at the very least, I, personally, will learn something new. But I'm sorry if reading my post has been a waste of your time |
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04-09-2006, 02:43 PM | #968 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
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As for Christianity . . . brownjenkins, IR, Spock, Gaffer and I, and others posting occasionally, have been debating that at very great length over the last few pages. Right now I don't really feel up to trying to summarize all of that to explain my arguments . Maybe later . . . or maybe I'll just give post numbers, after looking over that thread a little. Quote:
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I'm afraid I see modern liberalism in Islam as a passing phenomenon that won't last. Quote:
To a large extent, anyone's viewpoints are determined by culture, society and politics (all of which come from history), but with Islam, these largely come from religion. Thanks for raising those points about the Taliban and Afghanistan! It's very interesting to hear about that. Your point was that the Taliban's rise to power was not due to the people choosing them because of agreeing with their religious values, correct? I have no problem with what you were saying, really. I haven't researched it myself, but I am sure you're right. Culture and society are factors in how people behave, and most importantly the force that drives everything: history. Religion also is often a factor in people making the decisions they do. I'm not saying it's all religion. However, I think that Islam is a violent religion, and this in part defines the culture and society that these people will grow up in, and the history influences people's mindset as well. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-09-2006, 05:01 PM | #969 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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the naivete on this subject just boggles the mind
not knowing and knowing you don't know, yet posting an opinion -thus based upon ignorance (not knowing) is folly. this is exactly the frame of mind which will get us killed -again- I have to leave this forum for now. It isn't good for my wa.
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04-09-2006, 05:10 PM | #970 |
Elf Lord
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I hope you come back to the thread soon, for I'll miss you!
About expressing views without being experts: Again, none of us are experts . Elfearz says she is happy to learn, and so am I. She has taught me some things I haven't known before about Afghanistan history, and I have explained some things about early Islam that may interest some people. Even if she expresses a largely unsupported opinion (as I occasionally have), she doesn't state it as fact but as an opinion, and this provides reason for others a chance to research and reply. Which increases her understanding and theirs! It's win-win . So I'm happy we're all posting here. I wish you weren't leaving .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-09-2006 at 05:14 PM. |
04-09-2006, 06:06 PM | #971 |
Quasi Evil
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Id say the hubris of telling millions of muslims that they dont know their own religion and culture is far worse then giving your opinion on the subject when you arent a learned expert.
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04-09-2006, 06:17 PM | #972 |
Elf Lord
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I think there are periods of history where vast numbers of Christians haven't known their religion. However, the true nature of the religion will revive and doesn't die completely. This is no different with Islam.
You might also ask, "What right do you have to make such claims about a religion you're not a participant of?" The history books and modern trends are what I'd point to, in response to that. Reading history books is how I came to my current view.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-09-2006 at 06:22 PM. |
04-09-2006, 06:47 PM | #973 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Gosh, this thread goes on on a considerable speed, I can hardly keep up. (It's a good thing it goes into circles now and then. Just kidding. ) Serenoli, it has been most interesting to have read your view on this topic. It adds a dimension to this debate it had been sorely lacking. I once read a quote that said "All religions are paths up the same mountain." I think it is curiously apt. I always thought that within the large paths of the religions, everyone follows his or her own little road that is part of the big paths. I take it not all small paths reach the top of the mountain. I think the religion is not defined by what it says, but how you practise it. In my most humble opinion, that goes for christianity as well as for the islam. This idea I heard a few months ago in a debate about the difference between christianity and the islam. It said that christianity as a religion had been through dark times but had finally reached and passed a point of enlightenment in which understanding/acceptance and tolerance of other religions beside christianity were the main characteristics. In that view the islam, being 'younger' so to speak, didn't have that enlightened period yet, which would explain the current violence and succes of its fundamentalism. I don't know enough to reach a conclusion on that, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.
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04-09-2006, 06:59 PM | #974 |
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Here's a site that cites the population number of Muslims in Europe. Apparently there are 15 to 20 million, 4 to 5 percent of the population. And there are around 4 million Muslims in the US. Just mentioning, since we were talking about whether or not being few in number in the West is a reason for increasing radicalism in the East. Does 4 to 5 percent seem like a large or a small number? For myself, I don't have enough experience to venture an opinion.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
04-09-2006, 07:12 PM | #975 | |
Elf Lord
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EDIT: Oh, but before I just leave it at that for the time being, I have one question for you, Eärniel. Why do you think the major religions lead all the way up the mountain, and the smaller religions don't? PPS: Oh yes, a second question. In the past, some of the most widespread religions of the time involved human sacrifice. Wouldn't they also lead to the top of the mountain?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-09-2006 at 07:59 PM. |
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04-09-2006, 08:17 PM | #976 | ||||||||
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Going into a deep debate about the violence or lack thereof in Christianity would be OT in this thread, so maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. The basis of my argument is that I don't see why Christianity gets a "get out of jail free" to its historical violence just because Jesus is awesome. I also think Jesus is awesome, but this opinion of Islam strikes me as unfair. Quote:
I don't think us folks over here have a very good perspective of current Muslim trends. I also like how socially progessive Muslim countries like Malaysia have been throroughlly ignored in this thread. Quote:
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But, I think all of us have a similar lack of knowledge about the subject. Perhaps in discussing the issues and doing a little research we will know more. The first step to learning, IMO, is to humbly say that you do not know. Also, "get us killed"? Good point about the Taliban -elfearz-.
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04-09-2006, 11:12 PM | #977 | ||||
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1# Christians have used violence against specific groups in the world that they viewed as practicing dangerous evil. Muslims, on the other hand, have attempted to conquer the whole world and nearly succeeded, in the 7th and 8th centuries AD. It is the same now. Christians still use violence against specific groups they view as practicing dangerous evil, but Muslim extremists have declared war on all the world (including fellow Muslims) that does not follow their fundamentalist creed. My point is the scale and the goal. Declaring war on the world vs. declaring war on specific apparently evil groups. 2# There is no parallel for jihad written into Christian religious texts. 3# Muslim violence throughout history has exceeded Christian violence, in spite of the fact that Christianity existed for six hundred years longer than Islam. I don't have specific numbers and citations for this, so I can't prove this claim, and I can understand people needing proof to accept it. However, I can point to major wars and violent acts Christians committed in history and show that equal or often larger scale acts occurred in Islam's history. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-10-2006, 02:07 AM | #978 | |
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04-10-2006, 03:35 AM | #979 | |
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For the second, I think you can practise religion perfectly without human sacrifice (the aztecs may disagree with me here.) Whether they reach the top of the mountain... I suppose it will depend on what you think the top of the mountain is. The quote doesn't define it. Maybe we all just walk up there to find out.
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04-10-2006, 08:51 AM | #980 | |||||
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re: 1 The scale and the goal? Well, Hitler was a Christian. I think we all know the scale and goal there. "Muslims, on the other hand, have attempted to conquer the whole world and nearly succeeded, in the 7th and 8th centuries AD." The whole world now? Maybe you meant the whole of the civilized world at the time? The British Empire once covered one third of the Earth's land mass. Do you think England is a violent country? Under Genghis Khan, the Mongols conquered from Turkey to China. Is Mongolia a violent country? I think parallels between a country and a religion are valid in this case. And "apparently evil groups" can be, and have been, just about everyone. Take witch burnings for example. IIRC they happened right up until the early 1800s. The witch (or randomly persecuted townsperson) in question wasn't always burnt at the stake. One perfectly acceptable test of the day was to drown the victim. If they survived, then it must have been through magic, therefore they were a witch and were killed. If they drowned, then they weren't a witch, and they were given a post humous apology and a Christian burial. Oops! Another "evil group" was the aboriginees of Australia, whose children were forcibly relocated to residential schools. ("Rabbit Proof Fence" is a brilliant movie about this issue, based on real people.) Still another "evil group" was various native groups in North America. They too were sent to residential schools where people were forced not to speak their language, forced to go to church and be Christian, and in some cases, abused. Reparations for this are still ongoing in Canada. (Possibly also Australia.) But that's less bad than Muhammed declaring war on his neighbour (which I'm not condoning either) because the Christians of the time thought they were evil. I do not think so. "Apparently evil groups" does not justify or lessen the impact of violent acts. re: 2 Until proven otherwise by a Qu'ran sholar or a knowledgable Muslim, I firmly believe that there is a perfectly valid liberal interpretation of jihad. I think that is jihad is a spiritual battle within one's own soul. I like this concept and it also does exist in Christianity (though I like the concept here too). I'm pretty sure I got that from one of the UBC Muslim Student's association displays. re: 3 My violence is less violent than your violence? At some point we just have to say that in history, human beings have been (and still are) violent. I'm not condemning Christianity with citations of various violent or mad things that we've done in the past because of the same reason I don't think Islam is violent - it would be an unfair and IMO inaccurate assessment of the religion. Let's just say for the sake of argument that Muslim holy wars (or whatever) killed more people than Christian holy wars (or whatever). By your reasoning, the religion of the perpetrators of the greater amount of acts would be a more violent religion. I know have an odd mental image of God/Allah with a clipboard, keeping track of who killed whom. Quote:
That's one thing about Sharia law that I strongly disagree with. (I think that's Sharia law.) Quote:
Heh. Yeah. Let me know if you ever want to drop this debate like a burnt souffle. (Personally I'm getting quite into it. It's my new GLBT. ) It bears mentioning that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God. We're closer in doctrine than most other religions, and yet it's "West" and "East" that divides us until it seems like we have nothing in common.
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 04-10-2006 at 09:00 AM. |
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