04-05-2006, 02:45 PM | #901 | |
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04-05-2006, 02:54 PM | #902 | |
Quasi Evil
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As for justifying insulting people and not having it be racist well that’s just silly and not really the point frankly. It matters not at all what the context of the original quote was. When the quote is used to paint a religion with a broad brush (and its intent was a race originally) it is inherently damaging and denigrating. And is only asking for trouble. The language was NOT used (here) to refer to arab groups fighting each other it was used to castigate MUSLIMS from all over the world for protesting against the cartoons being published and some of them acting violently.
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04-05-2006, 02:58 PM | #903 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Indeed, if you put that "forcing Christianity" on the sentence.
However, Islam is a violent religion. There are only three choices for unbelievers: 1) accept Islam, 2) pay the jizya (tax on unbelievers), 3) War . Islamic theologians have asserted that the Verse of the Sword (ninth Sura 9:5)abrogates no fewer than 124 more peaceful and tolerant verses of the Qur'an.--Ibn Arabi, in Suyuti, Itquan iii, 60.Df. John Wansborough, Quranic Studies, Prometheus, 2003, 184.
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04-05-2006, 03:43 PM | #904 | |||||||
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As Spock said above, I never said anything about forcing conversion. I know that bringing new religious views into the area might very possibly invoke anti-Christian violence, but I consider persecution a worthwhile price to pay for doing what's right. This evangelism would not be done in an aggressive way. It would not be done in a way that attempts to force people to listen. If they show they aren't interested, then we just leave them alone.
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04-05-2006, 04:04 PM | #905 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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04-05-2006, 04:07 PM | #906 | ||||
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04-05-2006, 04:10 PM | #907 | |||
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04-05-2006, 04:22 PM | #908 | |
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But I'll ask you the same question I just asked Lief. Is it not true that there are at least some muslims who have found a peaceful path within their own scriptures? And, if so, why not try to work in that direction, as opposed to trying to convert someone from the faith they have grown up with, which introduces a whole bunch of other issues?
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04-05-2006, 07:01 PM | #909 | |||||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-06-2006, 03:28 AM | #910 | |||||
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I don't know a huge amount about Islam, but I'm quite sure that saying the jihad is a spiritual battle within one's own soul is a perfectly valid approach. I wish there was a real Muslim who could post in this thread. After he got over his initial horror at some statements, he could shed some light on different interpretations of the Qu'ran. Now I wish I had taken time to read the display from my university's Muslim Students Association. Quote:
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Lief, I imagine there is a Muslim somewhere thinking that Christianity is really the wrong approach, and it would be a great service to tell us all about Islam and get us all to convert. Who is right? You or the Muslim? Also, eliminate Islam? That is the goal of converting people!? I thought one might tell others about Christianity and Jesus so they could know Him, and if they were moved to believe in Him, Christianity would gain another member. But for the goal to be to irradicate one of the world's major religions seems complete madness to me. I mentioned earlier that culture and religion, especially Islam in this context, are deeply intertwined. If Islam ceased to exist so much wonderful culture would be lost. Small things like shawarmas with halal meat, and big things like beautiful Mosques, and Mecca would all be lost. Also, I heard that the Qu'ran is full of poetry. It would be a shame to lose that. edited: more on jizya. I don't consider Wikipedia to be the unvarnished truth, but this article seems pretty detailed.
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 04-06-2006 at 03:31 AM. |
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04-06-2006, 11:05 AM | #911 | |||||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-06-2006 at 11:15 AM. |
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04-06-2006, 01:02 PM | #912 | |
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I haven't read much of this thread. I remember I started once, but I felt too sick at points. I really don't want to answer back to any of the arguments, accusations and what-not, because the gulf seems too impassable. It makes me feel so awful to see you all just dismiss a whole way of life as 'violent' and 'dangerous'. How can I convince any of you, without showing you how my life is? My view-point here is so so different... and I am not a good one at arguments, I have not thought seriously about all this, or done as much research as some of you seem to have. I don't think I could ever convince you... but if you have any questions, I will try to answer.
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04-06-2006, 01:08 PM | #913 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I'm sorry Lief, but I think you are guilty of the exact same lack of vision that the muslim fundamentalists are. You understand christianity, so it seems like it must be the only way, but there really are many other equally valid paths to peaceful coexistance, you are just not willing to give them a chance. A real chance. Demanding that someone forsake their own heritage, no matter how much "love" you wrap it up in, is going to only lead to more violence.
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04-06-2006, 01:11 PM | #914 | |
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And you don't have to convince me either. I believe people are good people 'till they prove otherwise, no matter what there flavor of belief is.
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04-06-2006, 01:34 PM | #915 |
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that's a good belief, brownie...
Lief, I just have one point to make. So, many years ago, there were laws, violent ones, too, like the jizya, and the one about the Christian being under a death penalty if he hit a Muslim. Quite unfair to the non-Muslim, yes? But also very unfair that because of it, hundreds of years later, when we (the majority at any rate) no longer follow such laws, but stick to a more peaceful version of Islam, we should be asked to give up our religion for Christianity. I mean, you may point all you like at the terrorists, but what percentage of Muslims do make bombs in their backyards, or cut off the hands of thieves? And, you rave on and on about Christianity, but all I see are societies of anarchy, with no rules, where anything goes, where morality takes a back-seat to freedom-to-do whatever you please. And that works for you, but maybe I do not want my world to disintegrate like that- and all of it because some people quoting the Bible, decide to eradicate my religion with love and evalengical teachings as the non-offensive weapons etc. I'm sorry if I seem to be attacking your religion, but I'm not - only pointing what my perception of Christian society is. Destroying evil and oppression - is that really what you believe our lives to be, Lief? And that by introducing us to Jesus, you'll be doing us such a favour? We already know him!! He is in our religion as well, but perhaps you do not know that? Isaah is the name we have for him. He is one of a long line of prophets sent to earth to preach about God, and Mohammed was the last and the greatest. Such is our belief. In fact, I have heard a completely different story of the Crucifixon from my grandfather (he read much more of the Quran than I did). If it won't offend you too much, I'll tell you...
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04-06-2006, 01:59 PM | #916 | |
Quasi Evil
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Lets look at the possible scenarios: attempt to convert a radical islmist or terrorist and you may get yourself or others killed for it. You will not turn them. So you send us backwards. Attempt to convert a moderate or “liberal” Muslim and you most likely offend them and push them more toward the radical side since you are speaking down to their religion which you describe as “evil”. Again you send us backwards instead of forwards toward peace and harmony. So instead of conversion your approach should be a meeting of the minds. And in this way a conversion of more and more Muslims to the less radical and extremist approach to their religion. Losing their religion isn’t necessary just alienating the bad folks from the good and reducing the numbers of the bad folks out there. Right now too many of the decent folk in Muslim (and non Muslim) countries are less inclined to stand outright against the radicals because they feel they are being persecuted by the west who doesn’t understand them. Make an attempt to understand them and engage in activities that don’t alienate them and you can be sure the vast majority will isolate the radicals (the “evil” ones as you put it...) leading to a much better much less tense global situation. Bring people TOGETHER Lief. Dont alienate them. In this way you are still “converting” them but you aren’t threatening their religion. You have no right to do this just as they have no right to threaten Christianity.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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04-06-2006, 02:03 PM | #917 | |
Quasi Evil
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I think its really telling that this is your perception of Christianity. And I can certainly see how you could see that.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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04-06-2006, 02:39 PM | #918 | |
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04-06-2006, 02:47 PM | #919 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Serenoli, if I may address what you say concerning Christian society.
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However, what you and I see in the West is not a Christian society. One could possible make a case that the United States is, but with Europe it cannot be realistically done (and I think the case for the US would be pretty weak myself). Western society has reached the point where secularism is the state religion, no longer Christianity. I would say that it all began with the Reformation, but that's another discussion, but what Western society is is not a Christian society. There are certainly Christian bastions and remnants, which may make a come-back in the future, but as it stands, the Western culture and society is non-Christian. Destroying evil and oppression - is that really what you believe our lives to be, Lief? And that by introducing us to Jesus, you'll be doing us such a favour? We already know him!! He is in our religion as well, but perhaps you do not know that? Isaah is the name we have for him. He is one of a long line of prophets sent to earth to preach about God, and Mohammed was the last and the greatest. Such is our belief. Quote:
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04-06-2006, 03:19 PM | #920 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Violence has a lot more to do with other factors outside of religion. And, when religion becomes a factor, it is usually the fundamentalists of the faith that are behind it, no matter what that faith may be. So the problem is fundamentalism, or more simply put, putting written doctrine ahead of present-day realities. I think you can even see this within a religion like christianity, which has so many different interpretations. Violence throughout history has been more common among the catholic sects, which tend to be much more fundamental by their very nature (and by that, I mean structured with somewhat inflexible rulesets), than it is among the less-structured protestant sects.
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