Muslims

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I tell you, I am seriously intolerant of evil. I'm intolerant of slavery, sexism and racism. I'm intolerant of people harming one another and trying to tear one another down. I'm intolerant against Muslims' supposed right to persecute or grant mere second class citizenship to their religious minorities. These are aspects of Middle East culture and religion I am indeed intolerant of, and I am very glad I am not tolerant of them. No one should be tolerant of the abusing of the helpless and innocent.

I'm intolerant of stereotyping.

[Lief Erikson]

Me too. Except when it comes to Hollywood.

[Lief Erikson]

Brownjenkins, remember that I posted these things too:

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

There is a lot of good in Islam. Some of the Muslim teachings are very profound, very, very worth following. There are some great teachings of peace and ethics there. However, there also are calls for violent warfare against nonbelievers, and that is where we are today.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

many of Muhammad's teachings were moral light years ahead of the tribes of Saudi Arabia that he lived among.

And also, I'm fully aware that there are a large number of liberal Muslims who are not extremists.

[brownjenkins]

I know. I just like to remind people from time to time. Sometimes people get a bit to caught up in dogma and forget that in then end, the route to peace is learning to understand and work with our differences. Differences which will always exist.

You are not going to change muslims overnight, or change christians or jews for that matter. But hopefully at least a few babysteps can be taken by each generation.

[Nurvingiel]

I think Islam is very deeply intertwined with the culture of countries who have historically been predominantly Muslim, like Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. Sometimes it's hard to separate culture from religion, for example, Sharia law.

When people move to another country they bring their culture with them. Maybe this is part of the problem too.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I think Islam is very deeply intertwined with the culture of countries who have historically been predominantly Muslim, like Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. Sometimes it's hard to separate culture from religion, for example, Sharia law.

Yes, but a major reason for this is not simply that those countries have been historically predominantly Muslim. Lots of countries in Europe for ages were predominantly Christian, but have radically changed since or even anyway. England went through many changes throughout its history to become more and more democratic. The Parliamentary system of England and the freedom for man goes way back into its Christian culture. Even though England was predominantly Christian for many years, the Parliamentary system took over and King Charles I lost his head even with Christianity everywhere. So democracy isn't naturally always suppressed by religion.

The reason democracy is suppressed by Islam is that Islam was originally intended to tie together all the laws people needed to follow in life. It was supposed to encompass what we think of as religion, as well as politics and social and economic life. It had laws for all of those things. It was a religion that instructed people in the details of their lives. Culture was part of the religion, and politics also were supposed to be part of the observance of Islam.

Christianity wasn't at all like that. Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." He taught giving the state what was due it and God what was due him, and taught that these were two different things. But Islam enmeshes state and religion together. It fuses culture, economics, politics and religion all together and makes them one.

That's a key reason why Islam hasn't separated religion and culture.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

When people move to another country they bring their culture with them. Maybe this is part of the problem too.

Maybe. I expect that's true.

[Nurvingiel]

Interesting insights Lief! I wasn't trying to say that religion always/sometimes supresses democracy.

Maybe the lack of separation between mosque and state in, say, Iran is more cultural than religious. After all most Iraqis are Muslim and they have an elected President. Iran has an ayatollah (sp?) which has something to do with religion, I think.

I'm venturing into territory about which I know nothing, but I wanted to point out that Iran and Iraq are very, very different countries and both has predominantly Muslim populations.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Christianity wasn't at all like that. Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." He taught giving the state what was due it and God what was due him, and taught that these were two different things. But Islam enmeshes state and religion together. It fuses culture, economics, politics and religion all together and makes them one.

<OT>Someone should memo George W. Bush about that. </OT>

[brownjenkins]

Turkey is also an example of a democratic muslim country.

[Lief Erikson]

I realize there are a small handful of exceptions. According to Amnesty International, there are severe limits to freedom of expression in Turkey, and a Los Angeles Times article also indicated their democracy really could be doing better. But there are a small handful of exceptions.

The Palestinians do have a very real democratic process set up, and the Iraqis too. Though in Iraq, the democracy only exists because of coalition intervention in the country. Indonesia, a really big Muslim country, also has in very recent years formed a successful democratic process.

Real democracy exists only in a tiny minority of the Middle Eastern Muslim nations, however. Sometimes there's lipservice to a democracy (Egypt), but it's far from real in practice. A critical reason for this is the nature of the Muslim religion.

I think this is a critically important point:

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Islam enmeshes state and religion together. It fuses culture, economics, politics and religion all together and makes them one.

[brownjenkins]

I don't agree. I think it has a lot more to do with the history of the region. Countries have been in the hands of absolute or near absolute monarchs for centuries. Something the West perpetuatued after WW2 because we thought it would be easier to deal with monarchs than democracy. Saddam Hussien was secular, not muslim.

You only have to look back 50 to a 100 years to see a vastly christian Europe that was as far from democracy as the middle east is today. In fact, christian nations have a longer history of being undemocratic than muslim ones do.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I don't agree. I think it has a lot more to do with the history of the region. Countries have been in the hands of absolute or near absolute monarchs for centuries.

Because of the Islamic heritage and the Muslim culture.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Something the West perpetuatued after WW2 because we thought it would be easier to deal with monarchs than democracy.

World War 2 was very recent. European Christian countries changed to become more democratic, but the Islamic countries have not.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

You only have to look back 50 to a 100 years to see a vastly christian Europe that was as far from democracy as the middle east is today. In fact, christian nations have a longer history of being undemocratic than muslim ones do.

The Christian nations have a longer history of existing than the Muslim ones do . But even in spite of that, in England it is simply not the case.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Cromwell's revolt in England was a short spurt in a long and glorious (though hardly unstained) monarchy in England, which didn't have its (apparent) final death blow struck until much later.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The Christian nations have a longer history of existing than the Muslim ones do . But even in spite of that, in England it is simply not the case.

Well, Christianity is roughly 500 years older than Islam, but are we getting oldest religion points now? In that case Zoroastrianism wins at everything.

Iraq is largely regarded as the cradle of civilization, with the Sumerian empire starting between the Tigres and the Euphrates rivers. This was much before Islam's (and Christanity's) begginnings.

[Butterbeer]

thank god for the blackdeath.

else what democracy would there have been in the whole western world maybe?

Single greatest historical event - the blackdeath - the effective end of Serfdom- the start of freedom!


Nurv - for Muslims Jesus is a prophet- the healer - but he came later than other prophets- so that seems a little odd?

[Nurvingiel]

Why is that odd? Jesus was a holy man, and the Muslims regarded him as such. That's why he's the fourth prophet. Doesn't seem odd to me.

Think how long it took to write the Bible! You can't just make a religion in a couple weeks! People are going to keep adding to it, as people contribute to Christianity and Islam to this day.

[Butterbeer]

you said Islam was younger?

yet he was a later prophet.
they got a time machine or something there Nurv?

[Nurvingiel]

But Islam was founded in the 7th century! See? I'm confused.

Muhamed was born in 570 AD and Islam was founded in 622 AD. linkage.

Islam honours the Old Testament prophets (?) like Abraham and Moses. I guess the prophets of Islam are first Muhamed, then Abraham and Moses, then Jesus. In the date they were added?

edit: Mary is considered very holy but is not a prophet.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Well, Christianity is roughly 500 years older than Islam, but are we getting oldest religion points now? In that case Zoroastrianism wins at everything.

I was just explaining to brownjenkins why the Christian nations have so far been non-democratic longer than the Muslim ones . Age is not a very compelling evidence for validity .

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

thank god for the blackdeath.

Don't say that, BB. I know there were some really good things that followed the Black Death and that couldn't have come without it, as you say. But that came at the cost of unfathomable misery and death that we haven't had to pay- other innocents did. We cannot conceivably imagine the horror or the suffering.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I was just explaining to brownjenkins why the Christian nations have so far been non-democratic longer than the Muslim ones . Age is not a very compelling evidence for validity .

Oh.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Don't say that, BB. I know there were some really good things that followed the Black Death and that couldn't have come without it, as you say. But that came at the cost of unfathomable misery and death that we haven't had to pay- other innocents did. We cannot conceivably imagine the horror or the suffering.

I would say, Thank God good came of the Black Death.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I highly doubt it. I would guess it's some highly primitive beast cult, by that criterion.

Originally Posted by butterbeer

thank god for the blackdeath.
else what democracy would there have been in the whole western world maybe?

You are only making the Black Death worse in my eyes.