muslims PART 2

[inked]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

The hypocrisy is that we treat those we know well as individuals and those we don't as a group, but that's not exclusive to christians.

BJ was right! Here's a Canadian report validating that it isn't exclusive to Christians:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/can...586/story.html
""It was his wish to be buried there," he said. "He was very well-liked in the community. He was very intelligent and he spoke quite a few languages. He also spoke Turkish. They called him 'The Professor' there.""




Nothing like having lesser beings buried by special permission to upset your prayers!

[Jonathan]

Nobody likes religious violence. But Turkey is far from being anything like Iraq.

Just to put the last part of the article in some kind of perspective;
The article suggests that in the last four years, in a country of more than 70 million inhabitants, two Catholic priests and two Protestant Bible publishers have been murdered. That's four people.

I wonder how many imams or muslims that have been murdered during the same period in the US, out of religious hatred?

[Insidious Rex]

Or how many times Mosques have been victims of arson in this country such as the one that struck the Salman Alfarisi Islamic Center in Corvallis, Oregon just a few days after it was discovered foiled Christmas bomber Mohamed Osman Mohamud worshiped there a few times. Of course the real irony is that the tip to the FBI that got Mohamud caught came from an islamic source... I wonder why Oregon State University, Mohamud's school, wasnt targeted. After all he spent a lot more time there than he did at the mosque...

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by inked

BJ was right! Here's a Canadian report validating that it isn't exclusive to Christians:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/can...586/story.html
""It was his wish to be buried there," he said. "He was very well-liked in the community. He was very intelligent and he spoke quite a few languages. He also spoke Turkish. They called him 'The Professor' there.""




Nothing like having lesser beings buried by special permission to upset your prayers!

Yes, sad to say some people are so bigoted that they don't want people of other religions buried next to them ; others don't want people of other religions living next to them

PSYCHOLOGY student Osama Ghanaim was woken early one night last month by a mob of 60 ultra-Orthodox Jews chanting ''Kill the Arabs'' outside his flat.

'Then they stoned my house,'' Ghanaim said this week. ''Rocks broke through my front windows.''

After the crowd dispersed, Ganaim, who is one of 1400 Arab Israeli students enrolled at Safed Academic College, in northern Israel, found a poster on his front door warning him to move out
....

One of Judaism's four holy cities, Safed has been the centre of roiling ethnic tensions in recent weeks after the city's state-sponsored chief rabbi, Shmuel Eliyahu, issued a ruling forbidding Jews to rent flats or sell property to non-Jews because it ''causes evil and makes the public commit the sin of intermarriage''.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/societ...217-190r9.html

In other cases bigots dont want people of other religions in their city:

In Murfreesboro, Tenn., Republican candidates have denounced plans for a large Muslim center proposed near a subdivision, and hundreds of protesters have turned out for a march and a county meeting.

In late June, in Temecula, Calif., members of a local Tea Party group took dogs and picket signs to Friday prayers at a mosque that is seeking to build a new worship center on a vacant lot nearby.

In Sheboygan, Wis., a few Christian ministers led a noisy fight against a Muslim group that sought permission to open a mosque in a former health food store bought by a Muslim doctor.

At one time, neighbors who did not want mosques in their backyards said their concerns were over traffic, parking and noise — the same reasons they might object to a church or a synagogue. But now the gloves are off.

In all of the recent conflicts, opponents have said their problem is Islam itself. They quote passages from the Koran and argue that even the most Americanized Muslim secretly wants to replace the Constitution with Islamic Shariah law.

Others are so full of hatred that they don't want people of other religions in the same country:

Jehovah's Witnesses say the trial is not about theology, but turf.

"It is clear that the Russian Orthodox Church is concerned about the growth of non-traditional religions that have come into Russia in the past few years," Schroeder said.

The Orthodox Church supports the new law, which enshrines it as the country's main religious group. Metropolitan Kirill, one of the Orthodox Church's Moscow leaders, accused Jehovah's Witnesses on Tuesday of "intruding on the people's spiritual world and exerting psychological pressure," the Interfax news agency reported.

Funnily, you missed all of these stories and many more- it's almost as if you don't care in the least about religious tolerance, and, having the multi-kulti thread shut down for the same reason, you are just digging up additional posts for the "inked hates Muslims" category.

[inked]

I really don't hate Muslims, GM. I just happen to have a broad field for observing behaviours. A global field. My prior post about the Canadian forced exhumation and re-burial should have alerted you to the facts that Christians in Islamic countries live under dhimmi law and its consequences. The fact that Muslims are under instruction to walk at least 3 steps in any funeral procession they encounter to mark solidarity with all humanity seems to have been lost in this particular event.

"Funnily, you missed all of these stories and many more- it's almost as if you don't care in the least about religious tolerance, and, having the multi-kulti thread shut down for the same reason, you are just digging up additional posts for the "inked hates Muslims" category."

I really don't think I had the multicultural thread shut down. First, I am not ADMIN. Second, There are ten posts after my last one before it was closed.
Third, I resuscitated this thread which had lain dormant for 3 years.


Jonathan, FYI on the numbers killed: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...652533152.html
This illustrates the law of unintended consequences very explicitly. There is no doubt that the Christians were safer under Sadaam Hussein's dictatorship. The Kurds, not so much.

[inked]

Political concerns in Britain are like those in France? A rise in populism? Islamisation?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/t...amisation.html



And, here in the USA, we have the ultimate recognition: consumer group!

"American Muslims seeking more acknowledgment in the marketplace argue that businesses have more to gain than lose by reaching out to the community.

"We are not saying, `Support us,'" said Faisal Masood, a graduate of the University of Illinois, Chicago, and management consultant. "But we want them to understand what our values are."
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz19d9K9ilw

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

having the multi-kulti thread shut down for the same reason, you are just digging up additional posts for the "inked hates Muslims" category.

Originally Posted by inked

I really don't think I had the multicultural thread shut down. First, I am not ADMIN. Second, There are ten posts after my last one before it was closed.
Third, I resuscitated this thread which had lain dormant for 3 years.

Lets be very clear, if anyone else is thinking along the same lines that there is a "person" to blame.

Inked was NOT the "reason" for the thread being shut down. There were many participants involved, every culprit of which has also participated in every other political thread.

To assume that any one person involved carries more blame than any other person involved is not true.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Others are so full of hatred that they don't want people of other religions in the same country:

Funnily, you missed all of these stories and many more- it's almost as if you don't care in the least about religious tolerance, and, having the multi-kulti thread shut down for the same reason, you are just digging up additional posts for the "inked hates Muslims" category.

The Russian situation (which the ROC is obviously speaking to) is fairly complex. Last I heard, there were four officially recognized traditional religions in the RF: Russian Orthodoxy, Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism. (Of course, there are many subdivisons within Judaism, Islam and Buddhism, but I doubt the officious bureaucrats who really have final say in these matters know or care about these divisions).

In many parts of central Asia, including those still under Russian control, Islam is a majority religion. In some of the more eastern areas, Buddhism is. In fact, a notable Buddhist incorruptible was before his death the head of Russian Buddhists.

Now, obviously, Russian Orthodoxy takes pretty significant precedence over the other recognized traditional religions.

However, it seems to me that the JW's are closer to "same religion as" the ROC than are the Buddhists, Jews, and Muslims who are already recognized in the same country.

I'm not sure it's really a matter of "people of other religions", as you suggest. I think what it has more to do with is people who are perceived (whether acknowledged or no) as basically "same-religion", but wrong-headed about it.

I spent several years in nondenominational Christian circles in Russia, so I have some degree of first hand knowledge here. The whole "cult" moniker usually means (however people define it), not that you are a different religion from the person using the term, but that you are distorting the religion of the person using the term. For this reason, you often actually see more prejudice against Protestants of the lower-church varieties in Russia (there is some against Catholics, and doubtless also some against Anglicans, Lutherans, etc., but less than against evangelicals, nondenoms, etc. Baptists are actually seen as a fairly significant cultural threat in Russia) than there is against people who are truly of other religions, from what I have seen.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

This brought tears to my eyes: http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCont...ss,-servi.aspx

[Grey_Wolf]

In the wake of the suicide bomberr blowing himself to bits in the very centre of Stockholm, I've often thought about the reason why sensible muslims do go out in force and show their disgust and rightous anger of being collectively blamed for these insane acts. Are they afraid or do they secretly agree with the concept of killing off all "infidels"?

There are more than a quarter million muslims in Sweden. Think of the enourmous impact a national gathering of protest of 350 000 people would have on the general view on Islam and suiced bombers.

I think the ripples of this pebble would spread all over the world until the minority of the insane and religiously misguided would cease to be.

What do you think?

[Earniel]

I have thought about that too, but I ultimatedly think it is never as simple as that.

For instance, I don't feel the urge to make a public denouncement when somebody of my religion or culture does something repulsive or insanely stupid. Then I can't expect others to do the same. Also there are vast differences in customs, culture and even religious beliefs within the islam. Ordinary muslims may not even consider these bombers to be of their religion.

Besides violence by islamitic terrorists isn't only targetted at non-muslims, sometimes it is also geared at other islamitic factions, just because they have other religious ideas. I can understand ordinary muslims not wanting to make a target of themselves.

Also, if I recall correctly, islam has no structure of religious leaders such as christianity. Every imam is pretty much the same level as the other. If there was to be a protest, specifically from the muslim community, then it would have to start at grass-root level, and it's not very easy to do that.

[Nerdanel]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

This brought tears to my eyes: http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCont...ss,-servi.aspx

It is very nice to see something like this in the news every now and then as well.

[Nerdanel]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

In the wake of the suicide bomberr blowing himself to bits in the very centre of Stockholm, I've often thought about the reason why sensible muslims do go out in force and show their disgust and rightous anger of being collectively blamed for these insane acts. Are they afraid or do they secretly agree with the concept of killing off all "infidels"?

did they ever figure out if he was completely alone in doing this? as far as i know,
he wasn't part of any larger organisation, but i might be wrong.

it's just interesting to see that without knowing those facts about this guy, people never hesitated to call him a terrorist, and his act an act of terrorism. i so far haven't seen anyone call the (white, non-muslim) guy who shot senator giffords and several other people a terrorist. if he had been an american muslim arab, would the reaction have been the same? to me, it seems that lately (after 2001), in the definition for the word 'terrorist', 'muslim' has been a given. terror of course isn't something that only muslims cause or are behind, now or ever. still, the term seems to be too easily used to any criminal act a muslim carries out (in the west), but never to the criminal acts of anyone else.

what do you think?

[Grey_Wolf]

It might be that the terms arab, muslim and terrorist are bunched together in one evil denomination, but have the sensible muslims done anything to distance themselves from these lunatics who seek to defame Islam.

There was a infinitesimal trickle of Swedish muslims who protested against this act of a complete and utter maniac. A trickle mind you.

Are they afraid of their "fellow" believers? Are the sunni scared of the Shiit or vice versa.

I still think that all muslims, who do not want to be, as I said, collectively blamed, for what a violently deranged, religiously misguided group of lunatics do, should take a stand, be they sunni or shiit, and show an utter determination to protest and fight these maniacs and their incessant attempts to murder themselves, and, indiscriminately, innocent bystanders, whether they be of a faction of Islam or any other creed.

Is that too much to ask?

If Americans began attacking other Americans with the sole purpose of killing as many of their countrymen as they possibly could that would be considered acts of terrorism.

The wholesale murders of pupils by insane gunmen, that time and again, occur in the USA, could perhaps also be called terrorism.

The IRA killed British troops and Irish Protestants and that was considered terrorism.

But, did they ever blow themselves to bits? Was their purpose to kill themselves, as well their victims?

That is the marked difference between Islam and the other creeds. Christians, Jews and Hindi would never even think of doing any such thing. In fact, it is a major sin.

Should we merely just say: We cant do anything about it, so forget any notion that you have to the contrary.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

It might be that the terms arab, muslim and terrorist are bunched together in one evil denomination, but have the sensible muslims done anything to distance themselves from these lunatics who seek to defame Islam.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

This brought tears to my eyes: http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCont...ss,-servi.aspx

See link.

[Grey_Wolf]

Thanks, Gwai! Then perhaps, to a degree, it has already begun.

[Nerdanel]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

It might be that the terms arab, muslim and terrorist are bunched together in one evil denomination, but have the sensible muslims done anything to distance themselves from these lunatics who seek to defame Islam.

There was a infinitesimal trickle of Swedish muslims who protested against this act of a complete and utter maniac. A trickle mind you.

Are they afraid of their "fellow" believers? Are the sunni scared of the Shiit or vice versa.

I still think that all muslims, who do not want to be, as I said, collectively blamed, for what a violently deranged, religiously misguided group of lunatics do, should take a stand, be they sunni or shiit, and show an utter determination to protest and fight these maniacs and their incessant attempts to murder themselves, and, indiscriminately, innocent bystanders, whether they be of a faction of Islam or any other creed.

Is that too much to ask?

If Americans began attacking other Americans with the sole purpose of killing as many of their countrymen as they possibly could that would be considered acts of terrorism.

The wholesale murders of pupils by insane gunmen, that time and again, occur in the USA, could perhaps also be called terrorism.

The IRA killed British troops and Irish Protestants and that was considered terrorism.

But, did they ever blow themselves to bits? Was their purpose to kill themselves, as well their victims?

That is the marked difference between Islam and the other creeds. Christians, Jews and Hindi would never even think of doing any such thing. In fact, it is a major sin.

Should we merely just say: We cant do anything about it, so forget any notion that you have to the contrary.

i do understand why you want all swedish muslims to stand up and protest against the suicide bomber in sweden.. but i think it's a bit simple-minded, if i can say so. first of all, they probably don't consider themselves to have anything in common with the extremists that act in that way. everytime you hear of a male having killed his wife in the domestic terrorism that we see in every country (no, i'm not saying females are the only victims of domestic abuse), do you go out and protest on the streets, to make sure people don't think that's what you stand for, just because you happen to be of the same sex? did all christians in the us go out on the streets to protest against what the kkk were doing?

i guess it's not fair enough to assume that people will be able to be reasonable and realize that those completely normal citizens, who happen to believe in another version of the same god, have nothing at all to do with what the extremists do. extremists use certain beliefs, ideas for their own purpose and turn them into something they're not. why is it up to the people whose ideas have been stolen to stand up and defend themselves? who are we to accuse them?

it is easy, far too easy, to fall for the picture western media paints of arabs and muslims; to only see the acts by extremists and fundamentalists and not see what everyday arabs and muslims do. rarely, we get something like the case that Gwai brought up, reported in the media. and it's usually not main-stream media either. without digging a bit deeper, we have to understand that the information we get is highly biased, and if there's something in there we really don't understand, it's probably due to the lack of sufficient information or us being naive.

i don't really see why the suicide part of the attacks are important enough to say that 'only muslims do this'. there are acts of terrorism by christians, jews and hindus that muslims might consider a sin. to only mention a few acts of terrorism by christians or christian terrorist groups, we have the ku klux klan, the st. bartholomew's day massacre, the christian national liberation front of tripura and the sabra and shatila massacre in lebanon, where palestinian muslims were massacred by lebanese christians while under the supervision of the israeli army. and that's just a few. so i wouldn't try to separate what the extremist muslims are doing too much from what other extremist religious people are and have been up to.

of course we shouldn't just stand idly by, but simplifying the world into black and white and not understanding the background or the actual reasons (poor mental health, anyone? desperation due to living under occupation all your life, anyone?) behind these acts of 'terrorism' is the most counter-productive thing to do.

[Grey_Wolf]

Sorry for being a bit naive and uninformed. You are quite right. Christians arent blameless, neither are any other creed. Just as you mentioned the northern army massacres of hugenots.

And, yes, the propaganda of the media does have a share in the blame of the influence on people's views about muslims.

And mass-protests would probably not work anyway, so in this you are quite correct too.

Too many conflicting emotions and cultural differenses.

[inked]

Pakistan and its laws ...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articl...an_533702.html


Do note in the lead paragraph the notations of the disproportionate application.

I seem to recall an European encounter with this sort of "blasphemy" which involved a cartoon.

[inked]

Remember the Ground Zero Mosque controversies?

I believe they are back. The New York Post had this article 1-30-11.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/g...lADqlz8Et5CuTP


Not really unexpected since it is a Muslim project and they do have definite beliefs.

Note the religious remarks about people who reject Islam, in addition to the more inflammatory remarks about homosexual behavior.