Slavery

[Rían]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
No one is accidental - we are all products of our PARENTS.

Yes, I realize that But acc'd to evolution, humans came about thru non-intelligently-directed processes, right? That's what I meant by the short-hand term of "accidental".

See - you view evolution as a "atheistic" science - that's why you have blinders on. It's is neither atheistic or theistic.

I'm talking about the non-intelligently-directed version, which is the version that you believe, IIRC.

We have so much verbiage on this subject between the two of us now that I think I"ll just say I'm finished with your posts, unless you wish to specifically call a particular point to my attention for me to address

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

Wow! Just this morning this thread was only a few posts long... what an explosion.

Everything in the world is interconnected.

JD, I love that! You have a unique grasp of reality that most people lack, or at least don’t spend enough time thinking about. This interconnectedness, however, is not just physical. While I agree with you that we are intelligent animals, I don’t agree with putting a “just� before this. Reason is a very powerful thing that transcends everything else that we experience in nature. Even dolphins, for whom I have a lot of respect, don’t wax eloquently about the interconnectedness of reality.

Oh - so god created people so he could have things to worship him? Again very egotistical if you ask me.

It would have been far more egotistical of God not to create, because then He wouldn’t have to worry about sharing spiritual space with others (you have to admit we have been pretty poor neighbors so far), nor would He have to worry about being rejected (not to mention being spit on, slapped, scourged and then nailed to a cross to die of affixation). I don’t worship God because He needs to be worshiped, but because I owe Him, I owe Him big. And worship without action, such as practicing virtue, would be empty worship... “For you are not pleased with sacrifices; should I offer a holocaust, you would not accept it. My sacrifice, O God, is a contrite spirit; a heart contrite and humbled, O God, you will not spurn� Ps 51:18-19. At any rate, worship is more than bowing, kneeling, singing hymns, and long chants... it involves the whole of a person’s life. I just wish there were more examples of this kind of worship for us to follow.

And yes, bad people use the bible. However, bad people use the Constitution of the United States... they are called lawyers. Doh! Lawyer jokes!

today we know the SCIENTISTS were correct.

Funny you said this and later mentioned the Planet of the Apes. The scientists of former generations, and yes those social scientists that claimed that society had replaced God, were the ones proven wrong by the new sciences. These old scientists thought that humanity was progressively advancing along a linear path of evolution. Just as the human species was evolving ever forward, so society was progressively working it way out toward Utopia (both Fichte and Marx came up with some pretty frightening scenarios for this evolution, but that’s a different story). At any rate, the new discoveries of 20th century science started to bring this view into serious question. No longer was it entirely clear that science was equipped to delve the vastness and depth of a very complicated reality, and no longer was it entirely clear that humanity would forever evolve forward... in fact, it was posited that evolution could eventually turn around and collapse in on itself... we could de-evolve. Thus, the Planet of the Apes, a movie that brilliantly tapped the new fears of the late 20th century.

Anyway, this really has nothing to do slavery, but I couldn’t pass up the opportunity to work in a lawyer joke.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Guillaume le Maréchal
It would have been far more egotistical of God not to create, because then He wouldn’t have to worry about sharing spiritual space with others (you have to admit we have been pretty poor neighbors so far), nor would He have to worry about being rejected (not to mention being spit on, slapped, scourged and then nailed to a cross to die of affixation).

Excellent point.

I don’t worship God because He needs to be worshiped, but because I owe Him, I owe Him big.

You know, that's part of why I worship God, but not the main reason ... I knew there was something that I wanted to address but had forgotten. I might have to move it to another thread, tho, because it is getting OT...

And yes, bad people use the bible. However, bad people use the Constitution of the United States... they are called lawyers. Doh! Lawyer jokes!

ROTFL!!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...Another way to put it -
1. observable fact - When I left for an outing with the girls, the kitchen was a mess. When I came home, it was clean.
2. I think that my hubby cleaned it up.
3. Actually, it was my son that cleaned it up.
4. because I think that my hubby cleaned it up, does that falsify the fact that my son cleaned it up? No!

Another way to put it is...
1. If you didn't have a son, then the only conclusion would be that your hubby cleaned it up.

Which is my point of view. There is no god. Therefore, the only conclusion is that morality and ethics are developed out of necessity of by the people of a society. All evidence points to this.

...To put it another way, the fact that someone does not believe in something that is truthful does not negate the truth.

Exactly what I was thinking about you.

[Ruinel]

RÃ*an, read this... it is really interesting.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
... What you perceive as morality is a reflection of the behavior that is most successful in our particular niche in nature. If I do things (that you would consider immoral) and it gets me in trouble and perhaps dead well Im not gonna be very successful in passing on my propensity to do evil to others. Ill die out and the others who DO act in a moral way will be more successful BECAUSE that’s what IS successful in our particular environment. Now if you happen to live in 5th (5th?) century AD and you are a powerful leader of wild looting heathens called The Huns then guess what, whats beneficial is to hack and loot and rape and piliage and become one of the most powerful men to have ever lived. So the propensity for doing great evil IS in us but it only comes out when factors are such that its to our decided benefit as a breeding adult. Otherwise it tends to be much too dangerous so being “moral� is the default. Never forget that we are just living machines and we operate under all the rules of living machines. Morality is certainly within the realm of these rules.

I would have posted more of it, but I didn't want to subject everyone twice to the same post. Nice post IR.

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

JD, I’m not picking on you, really...

Where is the "thou shalt not own another Human" commandment?

Would the Israelites really require such a commandment as they were, themselves, being led out of slavery?

Slavery existed quite a long while after the Enlightenment and the “triumph� of the secular humanists... a few hundred years, in fact. Are we to say that secular humanism endorses slavery because the slave trade not only continued to exist, but, in fact, flourished after the Enlightenment?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Guillaume le Maréchal
JD, I’m not picking on you, really...

Would the Israelites really require such a commandment as they were, themselves, being led out of slavery? Just a thought.

Well the bible does talk about not killing your slaves - so I would think it would be a good idea. I was being factitious about it being incuding as an actual 10 commandment - but it would have been good if it was spoken out against somewhere in the bible.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I mean no disrespect either, I like you guys, but all I see are heads in the sand.

And why is that? Such a thing indicates hiding from danger, but it seems to me that the danger of Hell is worse than anything we might be hiding from.

religion is a cult that needs for the people to believe it without thinking.

So, again, people have to believe without any thought for religion to be accepted by them. Again, if someone is not an atheist, he is a non-thinking individual, i.e. stupid, imbecile, enslaved, essentially with no free will. All of these are merely taking your own argument to the fullest extent. If you say that someone cannot believe in religion if they do the tiniest little action, that is, think, then how can you possibly out of the other side of your mouth say you don't think you're better than Christians? You, think; Christians, do not. Therefore, you are superior, my friend. In fact, one might go so far (and it'd probably be Elfhelm ) as to say that Christians are a lower form of life, and that they really ought be the ones in the labs, having new chemicals tested on them, to make sure that those human beings capable of thought, the atheists, will not be harmed by them.

No one is accidental - we are all products of our PARENTS.

What if your parents didn't plan to have you? For instance, what about those (admittedly rare) instances that a man and a woman have a one-night stand, resulting in the woman's pregnancy. In such an instance, the person could (without a guiding force) be said to completely, wholly and undeniably an [b]accident[/i], or even more, a mistake. By no means are the majority of babies planned.

My objection is that evolution versu creationism has nothing to do with slavery.

On the contrary; both are directly related to a middle-point question: that is, the value of humanity. And I have yet to see any reason why a person who was quite simply nothing but an accident has value, and consequently, why such a person should NOT be owned by another.

1. See - you view evolution as a "atheistic" science - that's why you have blinders on. It's is neither atheistic or theistic. I learned evolution in catholic school. 2. As for the theory of evolution - it is backed up far more scientifically than creation. 3. You can not prove creation at all - it is just your belief.

1. Actually, you will note that Rian uses "atheistic" to MODIFY evolution. In other words, it is not atheistic in and of itself. But atheistic evolution is what she is referring to; and by atheistic evolution, I think I would be right (feel free to correct me ) in saying that she means evolution which is guided by no overseeing god, deity, or power, but which is merely random mutation and nothing more.
2. Because the vast majority of scientists today are evolutionists; therefore, that is what they look for. It does not need to have anything whatsoever to do with which is true; in actuality, the evidence has to do with which is more widely supported, and more widely sought.
3. Right back at you about purposelessness.

We have so much verbiage on this subject between the two of us now that I think I"ll just say I'm finished with your posts, unless you wish to specifically call a particular point to my attention for me to address

Not only that, I think you've got enough to publish!

1. If you didn't have a son, then the only conclusion would be that your hubby cleaned it up.

Let me put another (similar) example to you:

When Rian left, the kitchen was messy. When she returned, it was sparkly clean. As only she and Huor live in the house, she thinks he did it. BUT it was actually NOT Huor, but a neighbour came over to pay a visit, and seeing the kitchen, cleaned it up.

Which is my point of view. There is no god. Therefore, the only conclusion is that morality and ethics are developed out of necessity of by the people of a society. All evidence points to this.

Give me one scrap of proof that there is no God. Evidence cannot point to the non-existence of something. Only to it's existence. Any non-existence is established in a person's head. For instance, I believe there is no such thing as an invisible, flying hippo. Do I have any evidence to support this belief? No! There is NO WAY I can prove that such a thing does not exist.

Exactly what I was thinking about you.

I doubt it. Rian said: "the fact that someone does not believe in something that is truthful does not negate the truth."

But wouldn't you think: "the fact that someone believes in something that is not truthful does not negate the truth."

Huh? Huh?

[Lizra]

Geez Gwai, great brainwashing job. I would love to read some real stuff, maybe about what's going on in Russia, and your life there. The God/no God song and dance is a dead horse for this atheist. Flog it all you want.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Sorry, Liz, but I have no life. I don't speak Russian, Russians don't speak English, and I can't stand tourism. It's not but at the most weekly that I'm able to really interact much with people over here. I read more than anything, and surely that would be boring to hear about.

[Lizra]

You're kidding! Go out and do something! Just soak up some of the different culture, or natural scenery!? You can read anytime! Please, try a little tourism, or chatting. (prods Gwaimir with virtual stick) For me!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
And why is that? Such a thing indicates hiding from danger, but it seems to me that the danger of Hell is worse than anything we might be hiding from.

No. Having your head in the sand indicates hiding from the truth. Its a saying.

Therefore, you are superior, my friend.

DONT TELL JD THAT! (I'm assuming you are addressing JD here.) Gads! He'll put it in his sig!!

On the contrary; both are directly related to a middle-point question: that is, the value of humanity. And I have yet to see any reason why a person who was quite simply nothing but an accident has value, and consequently, why such a person should NOT be owned by another.

Evolution and natural selection are neither "accidental", if I understand you. Natural selection is a process by which one species is better suited to an environment than another. Mutations occur, say ... a baby human is born with a 12 inch tail, the tail is not removed at birth... if it grows up, meets another human of the opposite sex and they mate, those genes are passed on. If no girl wants to have sex with a man with a 12 inch tail (or vice versa), then those genes are not passed on.

Now, lets say that it's something more practical: thicker fur on a deer, or a lower metabolism. The thicker fur would allow the deer to live through an extremely harsh winter, and the lower metabolism would allow the deer to last over longer periods of no food, if a drought caused the vegetation to die out. This deer would live past those that were not as well adapted to the sudden and unforseen change. Therefore, the hairier and low metabolism deer would live to breed in the next breeding season.

I hope this clears up all the "evolution=accident" talk.

Let me put another (similar) example to you:

When Rian left, the kitchen was messy. When she returned, it was sparkly clean. As only she and Huor live in the house, she thinks he did it. BUT it was actually NOT Huor, but a neighbour came over to pay a visit, and seeing the kitchen, cleaned it up.

There are no neighbors. Therefore, Hubby cleaned the kitchen.

... For instance, I believe there is no such thing as an invisible, flying hippo. Do I have any evidence to support this belief? No! There is NO WAY I can prove that such a thing does not exist.

With this analogy, we then have to believe every article in every tabloid throughout the world. Aliens are taking over the world, and the government really does have a secret lab in which they cross breed humans with animals to make super soldiers.

I doubt it. Rian said: "the fact that someone does not believe in something that is truthful does not negate the truth."

But wouldn't you think: "the fact that someone believes in something that is not truthful does not negate the truth."

The "truth" is that there is no god, she doesn't believe this but believes the opposite to be true. It does not negate the truth that there is no god.

[Ruinel]

[be]Sorry, Liz, but I have no life. I don't speak Russian, Russians don't speak English, and I can't stand tourism. It's not but at the most weekly that I'm able to really interact much with people over here. I read more than anything, and surely that would be boring to hear about. [/b]

I thought you were learning Russian. Isn't there anyone there that is willing to practice with you? Maybe some cute Russian girl.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Sorry, Lizra, but at this point the natural scenery consists of mud, muddy snow, and inexplicably grey snow. I don't believe in tourism, and I do chat with folks here, but it's not always possible. The "culture" really isn't that different; St. Petersburg was made to absorb western culture.

Ru: I am learning Russian, but that by no means indicates speaking it. I learned Russian for a while, then we went to Portugal, and most of my Russian got supplanted by Portuguese. Then we went to America, and I took Spanish, so almost all of my remaining Russian was gone. Also, useless trivia of the day: Russian is considered the third most difficult language to learn for English-speakers, next to Chinese and Japanese!

With this analogy, we then have to believe every article in every tabloid throughout the world. Aliens are taking over the world, and the government really does have a secret lab in which they cross breed humans with animals to make super soldiers.

No, I was only saying that one cannot say that evidence proves the non-existence of God.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Ru: I am learning Russian, but that by no means indicates speaking it. I learned Russian for a while, then we went to Portugal, and most of my Russian got supplanted by Portuguese. Then we went to America, and I took Spanish, so almost all of my remaining Russian was gone. Also, useless trivia of the day: Russian is considered the third most difficult language to learn for English-speakers, next to Chinese and Japanese!

Oh, sorry to hear that. Perhaps you will get better with practice. Find yourself a cute Russian girl and tell her you desperately need her... to help you with your Russian, of course.

No, I was only saying that one cannot say that evidence proves the non-existence of God.

Through deductive reasoning and indirect evidence.

[Lizra]

Evolution= accident is dumb. It's a "tongue in cheek" bit of annoyance (IMO). I could go back to calling god "the invisble magic man in the sky" if you want to play that game.

[HOBBIT]

Wow this topic has gone incredibly off topic.

Go back to slavery or this will be closed.

[Insidious Rex]

Yes massa!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Yes massa!

That's hilarious.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ruinel
Through deductive reasoning and indirect evidence. /QUOTE]

But through that indirect evidence and deductive reasoning, you totally discount millions, perhaps billions of people throughout the span of Christian history as nothing but shameless liars, including some whom you claim to count as friends. Is then the word of a friend nothing to you?