Holocaust Denial

[Lotesse]

I'm sure you'd LOVE that! Yeah, right. Absolutely not. There is nothing to "discuss", Lief. I have made my stance perfectly clear.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lief

If the Jews killed in the Holocaust are continue to be acknowledged and their deaths are to continue to be dignified, then Holocaust denial must be confronted and stopped. If Holocaust denial is to be confronted, it must be understood. If it is to be understood, we have to have a devil's advocate, or at least a stomach for research and learning about UNPLEASANT as well as pleasant topics.

Very true.

Originally Posted by Lief

The BBC News article said that Holocaust denial is spreading through the Arab world. An extremely powerful Islamic political group in Egypt has openly condemned the condemnation of Holocaust denial, and the president of Iran has openly espoused Holocaust denial. These are major events in the political world. Because this IS a major issue, it is worth confronting. If it is to be confronted in an effective manner, it must be understood. Hence this thread. So I do not believe this thread is an attack on what happened to the Jews. It is an attack upon Holocaust denial.

Personally, I find it amazing that the denial would even exist, but if those reports are true, then apparently it does. And if it does, in large enough numbers, then it needs to be examined and dealt with, IMO - denying a horrible tragedy like the Holocaust is WRONG. What people perceive as truth affects their choices and actions, so it's important to know the truth.

Are they just saying that the Jews were NOT killed, or the numbers were exaggerated, or it's a conspiracy, or what? I don't see how it could be denied, but I'm always amazed by the capacity of humans to delude themselves

And I appreciate your sensitivity to Radagast. It's like if you're talking about rape and there's a rape victim in your group - I think it's kind to defer to them. You're not saying that they are better than the others, or not equal - you're acknowledging the simple fact that they have a personal tie to that particular horror in a way that others don't.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You have the right to speak . . . just as I have the right to disagree. I see you and I as equal. However, Radagast's view carries more weight than either of ours, because he is a Jew.

i respect radagast's opinion as much as anyone else here, but it's ubsurd to quantify how much weight one person's views on a matter have above another's... the holocaust, and ww2 in general, was a global human tragedy... it wasn't simply about jews... some of the numbers (from here):

The exact number of people killed by the Nazi regime will never be known, but scholars, using a variety of methods of determining the death toll, have generally agreed upon common range of the the number of victims. Recently declassified British and Soviet documents have indicated the total may be somewhat higher than previously believed[6]. However, the following estimates are considered to be highly reliable. The estimates:

5.1–6.0 million Jews, including 3.0–3.5 million Polish Jews[7]
1.8 –1.9 million Gentile Poles [8]
200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti
200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
10,000–25,000 homosexual men
2,000 Jehovah's Witnesses

along with:

The following groups of people were also killed by the Nazi regime, but there is little evidence that the Nazis planned to systematically target them for genocide as was the case for the groups above.

3.5–6 million other Slavic civilians
2.5–4 million Soviet POWs
1–1.5 million political dissidents

Additionally, the Nazis' allies, the Ustaša regime in Croatia conducted its own campaign of mass murder against the Serbs in the areas which it controlled, resulting in the deaths of at least 330,000–390,000 Serbs.

painting the holocaust as purely a jewish issue is just as detrimental as denying that it happened at all... and, as i said, the denials themselves are more a reflection of current animosity between certain groups, esp. muslim v. jew, than what people actually believe

the fact that israel became a jewish state is intwined with the holocaust... if the holocaust had not happened, it is difficult to say whether israel would ever have been established... this is why people who oppose israel deny it

[Lief Erikson]

My grandfather fought in World War 2 and my grandmother worked in a plant for the soldiers. I'm sure World War 2 has impacted others of us as well. However, Radagast is representative of Jews and Israel here on Entmoot. As you point out, Brownjenkins, the country Radagast lives in only exists because of the Holocaust. Radagast's family was personally strongly impacted by the Holocaust- he is a descendent of some who were killed in the Holocaust. He is also our resident Jew, a person whose entire race was devastated in the Holocaust. For all these reasons, I think that his opinion is in a somewhat different category from ours. None of us have been shaped by the Holocaust as he has, so I have a higher respect for his opinion about whether or not this thread should be closed than for my own.

I already was well aware that the Holocaust was not a strictly Jewish affair, though some of your numbers may be somewhat off. I've heard estimates of the number of Jewish dead that put the number at possibly 12 million. In my honors history class, I was taught that the number was 12 million. 6 million is only the number that we can be sure died, so we tend to go with that .

Anyhow, Brownjenkins, I'm sorry but I'm going to maintain my stance on this. For the reasons I listed in paragraph 1, I'm leaving this up to Radagast. Please don't try to get the moderators to close this thread on your own, either. I would fight such an action as hard as I am able, and I don't think any of us want to fight.

[brownjenkins]

i didn't say anything about closing a thread... i think everything should be open to discussion

i just wanted to point out the wider focus... as my numbers show, many were exterminated purely because they were homosexual... would a homosexual's opinion also hold greater weight because of this? or is it a numbers game?

and what about the germans? while many were a part of the very genocide itself, all had to share the blame after the fact just because they were german... even if they had little or no involvement in the holocaust itself... it certainly shaped many of their lives post-ww2

i prefer to think on these kind of events as human tragedies... something we all have a stake in and can all share both the grief and the blame in

if we do not want to repeat the past we must think more about humanity as a whole and less about the societal segmentations we create and perpetuate (be they religious or national) that allow leaders to demonize certain segments of a population and make these very genocides possible

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i just wanted to point out the wider focus... as my numbers show, many were exterminated purely because they were homosexual... would a homosexual's opinion also hold greater weight because of this? or is it a numbers game?

It's about more than numbers. The entire Jewish people were impacted by this and a major way. Homosexuals everywhere were not impacted by what happened to those homosexuals. Jews everywhere-and especially in Israel-were impacted by what happened to the Jews in the Holocaust. Almost every Jew alive has been impacted. The numbers are relavent. The impact upon a society, a state and a people are all there.

Yes, there is the aspect that this is a human tragedy as well as a Jewish tragedy. However, the tragedy impacted the Jews more than any other humans, and thus they deserve more of a voice.

If my mother had been killed in the Holocaust, the Holocaust would have impacted me more closely than it did you. You could not say, "This is a human tragedy; my voice is equal to yours." No, because I would be an insider, one who actually was touched by this horror in a much more tangible way, my voice about it would carry more authority than yours. If you said, "We should forgive the Germans," it would carry less weight than it would if I said it. This is simply obvious, in my view . Oh well .

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i prefer to think on these kind of events as human tragedies... something we all have a stake in and can all share both the grief and the blame in

I'm not sure that that is just. Some have a larger share of blame than others. For example, Chamberlain was more deserving of blame than Winston Churchill. Also, if I lost my father in the war, I would have more grief than you. So it's clear that there is individual responsibility and experience.

That said, I do see strong validity to your claim that we should all grieve when some grieve and should consider ourselves as all having a stake in what happens. We should care about humanity as a whole rather than merely ourselves. This perspective should not undermine the personal horror that the Jewish people experienced, however. It should not lead you to say, "You lost your father, but I experienced this tragedy with you because when you lost your family, everyone was impacted. Therefore, my voice is equal to yours, whether we are forgiving or condemning the wrongdoers."

I think that it is right and just that Saddam Hussein be put on trial by his own people. They were the ones impacted, not us, and therefore they have the most right to decide.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

if we do not want to repeat the past we must think more about humanity as a whole and less about the societal segmentations we create and perpetuate (be they religious or national) that allow leaders to demonize certain segments of a population and make these very genocides possible

I approve very much of your thoughts on taking humanity as a whole, but only so long as this does not undermine the personal connection that individuals have to what happens in life.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I approve very much of your thoughts on taking humanity as a whole, but only so long as this does not undermine the personal connection that individuals have to what happens in life.

personal connections are fine and should be respected, but we all share this planet and deserve to have our voices heard equally... there is absolutely nothing to gain by giving one group "more of a voice" and much to lose

one of the major motivators behind the rise of the nazis post-ww1 was the excessive blame and burdens placed upon the german society as a whole... giving one side "more of a voice" gives the other side "less of a voice" by definition and leads to the very resentment between one societal group and another that germinates the seeds of this kind of violence

you can't just look at one side of the picture and hope to learn from the past

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

personal connections are fine and should be respected, but we all share this planet and deserve to have our voices heard equally... there is absolutely nothing to gain by giving one group "more of a voice" and much to lose

one of the major motivators behind the rise of the nazis post-ww1 was the excessive blame and burdens placed upon the german society as a whole... giving one side "more of a voice" gives the other side "less of a voice" by definition and leads to the very resentment between one societal group and another that germinates the seeds of this kind of violence

you can't just look at one side of the picture and hope to learn from the past

Exactly!! That's what I was trying to say yesterday, but I instead slipped into incohesive angry hissing rather than gentlemanly eloquence as brownjenkins here is able to. But this here is precisely the last point I wanted to make, that there is absolutely nothing to gain by giving one group more of a voice than another. It's miopic, and a sort of reverse-discrimination that disallows for unity and stuff like that. Let me clarify - for someone to say that I have less of a right or valid voice to speak out against people taking the Holocaust lightly or to speak my outrage that I have for those who undermine the reality of the Holocaust, just because I myself do not happen to be Jewish, is absurd and unfair and wrong.

[Grey_Wolf]

What always makes me angry is the thorough denial of the Soviet Genocide of the 30's. Several million people was sent off to Siberia. But no one cares. No one demonstrates against Communist oppression. Especially in Sweden (IMO, the last Soviet state, even though some have called Norway that).

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

What always makes me angry is the thorough denial of the Soviet Genocide of the 30's. Several million people was sent off to Siberia. But no one cares. No one demonstrates against Communist oppression. Especially in Sweden (IMO, the last Soviet state, even though some have called Norway that).

That few demonstrations are held does not at all mean that people deny the killings in the Soviet Union. And when it comes to Sweden I haven't seen any demonstrations against fascist or nazi oppression of late either. They're old news. So why demonstrate?

However demonstrations against genocide are taking place. Not surprisingly, these demonstrations deal with more recent happenings. Demonstrations I think have taken place at least here in Stockholm not too long ago include Bosniaks raising their voices against the Serbs (remember the Srebrenica genocide in '95) and Shiites opposing Saddam Hussein's rule (Saddam who is currently on trial for the deaths of more than 140 Shiites).

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

What always makes me angry is the thorough denial of the Soviet Genocide of the 30's. Several million people was sent off to Siberia. But no one cares. No one demonstrates against Communist oppression. Especially in Sweden (IMO, the last Soviet state, even though some have called Norway that).

I know. I was talking to my Dad yesterday about how Stalin was really another Hitler. I think the number was 15 million of his own people he killed. One of the main differences between him and Hitler was that Hitler was killing vast numbers of people from other countries rather than mainly his own, and this made him a threat to other nations. Thus, most nations fought Hitler purely out of self defense. Since Stalin was mainly killing people in his own country, he was viewed as less of a threat. After World War 2 was over though, we did start taking the "Red Menace" very seriously.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

personal connections are fine and should be respected, but we all share this planet and deserve to have our voices heard equally...

If a journalist goes into that Darfur region, shouldn't that person have more of a voice about what's going on there than a cozy couch potatoe who doesn't know or care? I'm essentially saying what Lotesse was saying earlier. She put it pretty well:

Originally Posted by Lotesse

You just said we were equals. WRONG, you and I are NOT equals. Not in any sense of the word. You are a boy, I am a woman. You are a fundamentalist Christian, I am an atheist. You are a whole LAUNDRY LIST of things that I am not, and VICE VERSA. You are not even close to being my equal.

Although I think that in terms of intrinsic worth, each person is equal to every other, for we are all humans and thus deserving of a certain respect that goes with that, it is also true that people are not always in every way equal. People are very different from one another, and different experience can mean that one person's words should be given more weight than someone else's.

This is all getting really, really off-topic, though. Let's just leave the "equality of voice" issue aside, if you please? You can respond once more if you want about it, in closing, but I don't want this thread to get bogged down in off-topic discussion.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I know. I was talking to my Dad yesterday about how Stalin was really another Hitler. I think the number was 15 million of his own people he killed. One of the main differences between him and Hitler was that Hitler was killing vast numbers of people from other countries rather than mainly his own, and this made him a threat to other nations. Thus, most nations fought Hitler purely out of self defense. Since Stalin was mainly killing people in his own country, he was viewed as less of a threat. After World War 2 was over though, we did start taking the "Red Menace" very seriously.

That's no real difference, since Stalin killed people from other countries too. Mainly people from eastern Europe were killed but also some people from the West who were caught while visiting Soviet satellite states.

Let's remember that Germany suffered a massive defeat. The Nuremberg trials were held. The West German goverment did its very best to uncover the crimes of the Nazis and the Germans themselves felt awfully responsible and regretful. This is unique in history - never before has a nation so candidly spoken about their wrongdoings.

So it's not strange that Hitler and his crimes are more known and infamous than the crimes of Stalin or any other dictator - Germany itself has been obliged to see and tell the world about its dark history. Stalin's USSR was never defeated in war and Russia of today has never been forced to deal with their past crimes.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

This is all getting really, really off-topic, though. Let's just leave the "equality of voice" issue aside, if you please? You can respond once more if you want about it, in closing, but I don't want this thread to get bogged down in off-topic discussion.

that's cool... i already covered the essence of it and why it is so important

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

That few demonstrations are held does not at all mean that people deny the killings in the Soviet Union. And when it comes to Sweden I haven't seen any demonstrations against fascist or nazi oppression of late either. They're old news. So why demonstrate?

However demonstrations against genocide are taking place. Not surprisingly, these demonstrations deal with more recent happenings. Demonstrations I think have taken place at least here in Stockholm not too long ago include Bosniaks raising their voices against the Serbs (remember the Srebrenica genocide in '95) and Shiites opposing Saddam Hussein's rule (Saddam who is currently on trial for the deaths of more than 140 Shiites).

So you don't call the AFA's "demonstrations" a statement against moronic Nazies in this country.

Let's face it, Sweden is a Socialist state. The Government, the media (that includes papers, tv and radio), the union are well in the hands of leftwing extremists.

And that's why no one in the so-called establishment thinks it's important to remember any Communist opression and atrocities. Because it's "ancient" history in their opinion.

[Lief Erikson]

We need Captain Stern .

[HOBBIT]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

We need Captain Stern .

To make more 'arguments' against the existence of the Holocaust? Oh yes.

What exactly do you want from this topic? This topic has not broken any of the rules of entmoot, so there is no need to close it. I just have no idea what there is to discuss.

further edit:
And since even Captain Stern is in agreement with us that the Holocaust existed, what is the point?

It isn't like we have members here arguing that it didn't exist.

Captain Stern is just the one who has presented some arguments against its existence. And people like him less for it. You want him to do more of that?

How does it affect us if some crazy Islamic groups deny the Holocaust? Isn't that to be expected? How can discussing it here help solve that?

[Captain Stern]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

We need Captain Stern .

I'd give up if if I were you. There's no room for discussion or reason when faced by an angry mob (such as those who helped facilitate the holocaust). Morality is transient, we know that from our cave men days. It's the oppinion of the majority that counts. If your oppinion differs from theirs then you'll be persecuted, as has been amply demonstrated here.

EDIT/ UPDATE

I should make it clear once again that my oppinion is that everything should be open to question and that it's important to always explore the viewpoint of those opposed to you, instead of denouncing such oppions out of hand, thus letting ignorance reign.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

Captain Stern is just the one who has presented some arguments against its existence. And people like him less for it. You want him to do more of that?

If he is unwilling to put up with any more personal harrassment, I will completely understand. However, if Stern is willing to present information about the perspective of Holocaust deniers, if he is willing to take the position of devil's advocate more, I think that those who listen will find learning the opposing view increases their understanding and their ability to confront the problem if they encounter it. Understanding is important on major issues such as this.

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

How does it affect us if some crazy Islamic groups deny the Holocaust? Isn't that to be expected? How can discussing it here help solve that?

This is a poison that is spreading throughout the Middle East. It is becoming a major issue. Thus, understanding why people like that believe what they do is important. On any major controversial issue, I think that becoming involved in debates on the subject is very useful for increasing understanding. This puts weapons in your arsenal. This is one reason why in my college, teachers assign students to be devil's advocates arguing in favor of racial segregation. It is instructive. I greatly appreciate Captain Stern's efforts so far. He has made it clear that he doesn't espouse the view personally, but he is helping to increase our understanding about a perspective that is becoming prevalent in the Middle East, and thus worth knowing about. The Muslim Brotherhood and government of Iran are not small groups, and the BBC article strongly implied that Holocaust denial is not limited to them when it said it is spreading like a wave through the Arab world. This is important stuff. Those who are interested in learning should be able to learn, and if someone attacks the devil's advocate's personality rather than his arguments, that person is being small minded and nasty. I should hope we are all more mature than that.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

I'd give up if if I were you. There's no room for discussion or reason when faced by an angry mob (such as those who helped facilitate the holocaust).

Stern, I very strongly dislike your calling Entmooters an "angry mob," or comparing them to those who caused the holocaust. Please choose different comparisons, if you must compare them to something.

I hope that you won't allow yourself to be at all embittered by this. I'm sorry this happened. I'm sorry you've had a negative experience here, and if you're unwilling to continue, as I said above, I completely understand. I would be sorry, but I'd understand.

[Captain Stern]

Of course I'm not directly comparing people like lotesse and hobbit to ordinary germans who helped facilitate the holocaust. There are many shades of grey. Yet, in my oppinion, they have sought to incite others to condemn those who disagree with them, which is exactly what leaders of mobs do.

My point was that it's people who believe in absloutes (however good their intentions), NEVER those who continually seek to understand both sides of an argument, who cause tragedies such as the holocaust to happen,.