patriotism

[Bombadillo]

Originally posted by sun-star
You really think that's a good idea? What if you only meet one person from a particular country, and they're obnoxious - do you then hold the opinion that everyone in that country is the same? That's the theory that makes jerseydevil think everyone in the UK calls the USA "the colonies", because he met some people who said that. It really just encourages generalisations.

I would be more in favour of accepting that you can't generalise about an entire country, no matter how many of them you've met

I think OrnelÃ*rë Mistë probably meant Don't judge nations by individuals; judge individuals by themsleves.

In response to the very first post (since I haven't read all the rest yet and this is my first reply here), that's a ridicualous story. You know how many Americans have flags flying from their car windows or antenna, or flag stickers on their car windows or bumpers, or paint jobs, or spare tire casings? Holding this against Canada would be hypocritical.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
the majority of British I have come in contact with though do act that way or refer to the United States as the colonies (which even happened while they were IN the United States eating lunch with me).

I bet they just do that to annoy you, because they know it works every time

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
I bet they just do that to annoy you, because they know it works every time

No - they didn't know me well enough to know that. They were business people from the company that my father partially sold his company to. They knew me in no way shape or form - other than as the president's son and systems analyst.

Also - it was because of them that I started seeing how Europe in general acted toward the US - before that I had wanted to live in England. So - before that - I loved England as much as the US. That is one of the reasons why I studied British History so much and did not study nor care about American history. Now - I concentrate on American Revolutionary history instead.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
No - they didn't know me well enough to know that. They were business people from the company that my father partially sold his company to. They knew me in no way shape or form - other than as the president's son and systems analyst.

But they knew you were from the US? Then of course they knew you would be annoyed by it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
But they knew you were from the US? Then of course they knew you would be annoyed by it.

Well then I would think it would be very immature for business people to do that with someone they don't even know - especially when they are in MY country.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well then I would think it would be very immature for business people to do that with someone they don't even know - especially when they are in MY country.

Also quite a bad business technique...

[Hemel]

No = I think I pretty much understoof what the people who I was with were saying. It doesn't take much interpretation. You weren't there - so you can NOT judge.

No, JD, I wasn't there. But nor was everyone else here on this thread, I assume, so we have only your interpretation of the events. As sun-star pointed out, there's another interpretation, and I can think of a couple more as well. So although you took the comments one particular way that doesn't mean that was the only way they could be taken.

As well, you state that these people didn't know you well enough to know what your reaction would be. So by the counter, surely you didn't know them well enough to know what they meant, and the spirit in which they meant it.

But on a bigger point, are you really suggesting that you base your views on 'Europe' as a whole by a few business meetings? Or even on a couple of trips? I think, again what sun-star said

I would be more in favour of accepting that you can't generalise about an entire country, no matter how many of them you've met

is a good point. To illustrate this, just supposing I were to base my view of the US on things that you have posted in various places here. I wonder exactly what view of the US I would now be holding? I'm not sure it would be entirely complimentary

JD, I really don't deny that you may have been upset, and so much so that it has changed your attitude and view. I think that this is a great pity. I also would state that if rudeness were intended then that is not acceptable, and I am 100% with you on this. I can empathise with your feelings, and I can understand why you would be angry, too.

But now I'd ask one thing. This is a general observation/question, not just aimed at you, JD. If there is a division between 'Europe' and the US, is it a good thing to perpetuate and propagate it?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Hemel
No, JD, I wasn't there. But nor was everyone else here on this thread, I assume, so we have only your interpretation of the events. As sun-star pointed out, there's another interpretation, and I can think of a couple more as well. So although you took the comments one particular way that doesn't mean that was the only way they could be taken.

Then fine - I don't givce a damn what you think.

As well, you state that these people didn't know you well enough to know what your reaction would be. So by the counter, surely you didn't know them well enough to know what they meant, and the spirit in which they meant it.

Actually I DID based on OTHER things they said. If I told you, while eating in YOUR country WITH you and all I did was criticize everything about your country - wouldn't you take offense?

But on a bigger point, are you really suggesting that you base your views on 'Europe' as a whole by a few business meetings? Or even on a couple of trips? I think, again what sun-star said is a good point.

NO - but I base my opinions on the PERCENTAGE of people I have dealt with and other things.

By the way - it's sort of funny when you ask Europeans about Americans - they say "lazy and fat" as two of the top things that come to their mind.

To illustrate this, just supposing I were to base my view of the US on things that you have posted in various places here. I wonder exactly what view of the US I would now be holding? I'm not sure it would be entirely complimentary

I don't really care what opiinion you have of America - going by this board, and past experiences - there are a lot of Europeans, actually more than not - that have a problem with America and Americans.

But now I'd ask one thing. This is a general observation/question, not just aimed at you, JD. If there is a division between 'Europe' and the US, is it a good thing to perpetuate and propagate it?

Please tell me this - how am I perpetuating it? Beacuse I'm tired of the constant negative cpomments about Americans and America. I get along with MANY Europeans. I also don't judge INDIVIDUAL Europeans before I get to know them. Maybe you should go do a search and see the many things people from around the world have said about America AND Americans. Yes - I and many Americans are tired of the judgmental, hypocrital, arrogant and superior attitude of Europe. Sorry - but this has been demonstrated to me in person and on many boards - including this one. Fat Middle the one time compared the US giving suggestions to Europe as a little boy giving suggestions to an old man. This seems to be the typical attitude. I'm sure you too will try to explain this away as being a misunderstanding - and surely he didn't mean it the way he did.

As of this post - I'm tired of talking to you about this. As I said - you were not there,, you do not know how many Europeans I have come into contact with. I have been to England, had many personal contacts with various europeans. So how many times have you been to America?

By the way - this thread is very calm - you should see the many deragtory things that was said about our patriotism in the past by Europeans on this board. Many of them are no longer here.

You have been here 6 months - I have been here 2 years. The anti-Americanism has calmed down. But do a search on the past threads. It might enlighten you to the European attitude.

[Falagar]

By the way - it's sort of funny when you ask Europeans about Americans - they say "lazy and fat" as two of the top things that come to their mind

According to some statistics I found in a newpaper, 60% of all americans weight too much. Can you enlighten me wether this is true or not?

Of course, that's not the first thing(s) that spring(s) to my mind.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
According to some statistics I found in a newpaper, 60% of all americans weight too much. Can you enlighten me wether this is true or not?

It's not true. For one thing - they use Body Mass Index (BMI) to determine the weight of people. If a person works out and is muscle - they are considered obese. ABC news had on last year how out of wack the system is to determine obesity in this country - Arnold Swarzenegger is concidered obese according to it.

I'm not sure what the actual percentage is - I have heard everything from 40% - 60%. I know that Americans weigh too much and children seem to be fatter. But actually - there was a report out this summer that said that Europeans are only slighly behind us in weight.

This is how the weight of people is determined -

ERS researchers used self-reported heights and weights to calculate survey respondents’ Body Mass Indices (BMI—weight in kilograms divided by height in meters squared). Adults with a BMI of 30 or above are classified as obese by public health officials. Those with BMIs at or above 25 but less than 30 are classified as overweight.

Now - since muscle weighs more than fat - it throws this whole measurement thing off.

Myth: BMI Measures Body Fat

Two people can have the same BMI, but a different percent body fat. A bodybuilder with a large muscle mass and a low percent body fat may have the same BMI as a person who has more body fat because BMI is calculated using weight and height only.

These men have the same height, weight, and BMI, but may have different percent body fat.

This is a good reminder that BMI is only one piece of a person's health profile. It is important to talk with your doctor about other measures and risk factors. (e.g., waist circumference, smoking, physical activity level, and diet.)

I'm not overweight, even according to the BMI index.

By the way - I blame a lot of the weight gain of Americans on the health care providers who told people to eat pasta and stuff. It is full of carbohydrates that the body stores as fat. People should just eat a varied diet and watch what they eat.

[Hemel]

Then fine - I don't givce a damn what you think.

Ah well, there you go. I can see that if you carry that kind of attitude there's no point spending any more time on this either, JD.

But just as a matter of interest

Beacuse I'm tired of the constant negative cpomments about Americans and America. I get along with MANY Europeans. I also don't judge INDIVIDUAL Europeans before I get to know them. Maybe you should go do a search and see the many things people from around the world have said about America AND Americans. Yes - I and many Americans are tired of the judgmental, hypocrital, arrogant and superior attitude of Europe. Sorry - but this has been demonstrated to me in person and on many boards - including this one.

Well, JD you justify your attitude by this - but try trading the places of 'Americans' and 'America' with 'Europeans' and 'Europe'. I think, JD, that what you are saying rubs equally well in the opposite direction too. There are some amazingly offensive (and very ignorant) things said and portrayed by USAmericans about 'Europeans' also.

But do you really think that exchanging insults is the best way forward?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Hemel
Ah well, there you go. I can see that if you carry that kind of attitude there's no point spending any more time on this either, JD.

The reason I said that was because you want to think that it was a "misinterpretation" on my part, that there is some other explanation. Maybe my statement was a bit harsh, but you seem to not want to accept at all that I might be right and that they were arrogant, obnoxious and rude while eating with me. There is no reason to further discuss it as long as you think that. You can think that it was either my fault or that I just didn't understand. Either way you come across as saying - it was my problem - and not theirs. You were not there, as I have said. You have not seen how many europeans I have come into contact with these attitudes. There are many Europeans on this board who don't have that attitude, and yet I know there are a lot that do. Everything the US does it beneath Europe and Europe is oh so superior in every way shape and form.

What about if an American was eating with you and said British food was crap and your country was backward. This was basically said to me - now would you take it as an offense - or would you say "oh well, it must be my fault, I just took it wrong."? Or maybe - as I have heard people say "Maybe they're right".

But just as a matter of interest Well, JD you justify your attitude by this - but try trading the places of 'Americans' and 'America' with 'Europeans' and 'Europe'. I think, JD, that what you are saying rubs equally well in the opposite direction too. There are some amazingly offensive (and very ignorant) things said and portrayed by USAmericans about 'Europeans' also.

Yes there are - but we aren't burning your flag. Let me ask you this - what do you think is American cuisine? What do you think of when you think of American culture? How many British refer to America as "the colonies". I heard it REPEATEDLY in England when I was there.

But do you really think that exchanging insults is the best way forward?

I didn't exchange insults toward you. I just respond to the repeated insults that Europeans say toward Americans. I at least have been to your country.

Maybe if Europe accepted that we have self interests, that our presidents do NOT work for them, but the American people, that our culture is just as good as theirs, etc - maybe THEN the ties between Americans and Europeans will be healed. As of right now - I am personally very tired of seeing demonstration after demonstration in Europe against our country - and it was WAY before Iraq. So the demonstrations have nothing to do with Iraq. They have to do with the fact that Europeans think that America should only do Europe's bidding.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You have not seen how many europeans I have come into contact with these attitudes. There are many Europeans on this board who don't have that attitude, and yet I know there are a lot that do.

I know that's true - but I wonder, do you have any statistics, polls etc? I always wonder if the America-haters aren't just an extremely vocal minority who drown out those who take another view, i.e they are not representative of most of us. I would be interested to see a poll which says "60% of Europeans think Americans are fat and lazy" rather than a poll like this from last year which has 81% of Britons agreeing that they "like Americans as people".

How many British refer to America as "the colonies". I heard it REPEATEDLY in England when I was there.

I'm sorry that you happened to meet people who said that , but honestly, that is not at all a common expression in the UK. No one I know ever says that, and I've actually only heard it once in my whole life - in a film set in the 19th century.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
I know that's true - but I wonder, do you have any statistics, polls etc? I always wonder if the America-haters aren't just an extremely vocal minority who drown out those who take another view, i.e they are not representative of most of us. I would be interested to see a poll which says "60% of Europeans think Americans are fat and lazy" rather than a poll like this from last year which has 81% of Britons agreeing that they "like Americans as people".

i do agree that most likely the majority of Europeans like Americans. But the thing is - that doesn't mean they necessarily look at Americans as being hard working, or generous or in a generally good and positive light. If I come across a stats page that actually talks about - "how would you (europeans) describe americans" then I will post it. That is the problem. One can like someone and still think they are above them or superior. it seems like Europeans consider the US as their little child.

I'm sorry that you happened to meet people who said that , but honestly, that is not at all a common expression in the UK. No one I know ever says that, and I've actually only heard it once in my whole life - in a film set in the 19th century.

I hope you are right - because I have heard too many Britons try to marginalize America and our Revolution, as well as Europeans in general marginalizing our overall history and culture. Maybe it's just a vocal minority but maybe it's not. There is only so many times you can see your flag being burned on the streets of London before you start questioning whether they are majority or minority.

When the maginician guy suspended himself over the Thames - one Briton said "we don't really care, we're above this showmanship that Americans seem so fond of." It's that attitude I have heard too often from Europeans "above this showmanship that Americans seem so fond of." That sentence alone indicates a superior attitude over America. And that I found not be that unusual in England.

I never thought America was better than any other country - but I have been, especially over the last two years, tired of so many people acting as if Europe is superior to the US and that we should do things like Europe.

This is a very quiet thread about patriotism compared to the discussions and accusations about our patriotism last year.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
This is a very quiet thread about patriotism compared to the discussions and accusations about our patriotism last year.

That's probably because you chased away all the other participants last year.

I read that poll, and it seems like many Britans think that they can learn something from America - which does not seem like putting themselves above Americans.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
That's probably because you chased away all the other participants last year.

One can always hope.

I read that poll, and it seems like many Britans think that they can learn something from America - which does not seem like putting themselves above Americans.

I would still like to see a more detailed poll about Europes overall attitude toward America. What do they think we eat, etc. How many Europeans think that what we eat is the fast food crap? Maybe it is just a vocal minority, maybe it's just the people that make good news, maybe I just encountered a number of arrogant Europeans who don't represent the majority. There are many Europeans I like on this board and many outside this board. However, I have come across several Europeans and particularly french who have had "will talk to anyone except an American". Again - this was before Iraq.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I hope you are right - because I have heard too many Britons try to marginalize America and our Revolution, as well as Europeans in general marginalizing our overall history and culture.

Certainly. I hope I'm right too

However, Americans do marginalize Europe in the same way. They say that all our objections to them are based on jealousy, for example, or that we haven't got over not being colonial powers anymore, or that we're all cowards. They make geographical comparisons or remind us that they saved us in WW2. As for marginalizing the American Revolution, that's impossible for me at least because most of the Americans I've met greet me with "So you're British. Hey, we really beat you good in the Revolution, didn't we!" These are all ways in which Americans say they are superior to Europe.

Probably some of it is a rearguard action against European prejudice; but it goes both ways. And we don't like it any more than you do. It's all unnecessary.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
Certainly. I hope I'm right too

However, Americans do marginalize Europe in the same way. They say that all our objections to them are based on jealousy, for example, or that we haven't got over not being colonial powers anymore, or that we're all cowards.

You're not all cowards - just France. As for the jealousy thing - a lot of it does seem that way. When we hear speeches on how we should listen to Europe because you're countries are older - it does seem like their is a resentment there. As I have said repeatedly - your scholars and leaders, and citizens learn about history the same way we do - through books. Being an older country has absolutely no benefits in knowing how to handle foreign affairs, health care, death penalty or any of the many other things we have differences in. As for arguing about internal affairs - I don't see why it concerns anyone outside the country.

They make geographical comparisons or remind us that they saved us in WW2.

Well we sort of did. We also did rebuild Europe, as well as Germany and Japan (our enemies). Now people question our motives all over the world, which is rather disturbing. It is like Europe doesn't really trust the American populace - because our government is the people, whatever anyone else may think. Bush does have a 63% approval rating right now in America - whereas he has a 30% approval rating (last time I heard) in Europe.

As for geographical comparisons - Europeans always consider all the states as the same. Very few I have found - understand our state rights or even how our government works. But many criticize Americans for generalizations and our lack of understanding of your laws. It's the same thing. Do you know how many people have told me that they thought New Jersey is part of New York?

As for marginalizing the American Revolution, that's impossible for me at least because most of the Americans I've met greet me with "So you're British. Hey, we really beat you good in the Revolution, didn't we!"

Well that's just plain funny.

These are all ways in which Americans say they are superior to Europe.

No - I think as you say below - this is a way of saying, you aren't superior in the world.

Probably some of it is a rearguard action against European prejudice; but it goes both ways. And we don't like it any more than you do. It's all unnecessary.

I do think a lot of it is a rearguard action against the European attitude and prejudice. How many times do I have to hear as proof that Americans don't go anywhere - the fact that few Americans have passwords. Europeans seem to ignore the fact or don't know that we can travel the ENTIRE North American continent without one. The same can not be said about traveling through Europe. I would like to see the percentage of Europeans who travel outside of Europe. I have a feeling most Europeans travel exactly like Americans - it's just that going from England to Italy is considered an international trip, whereas me going to New Jersey to Tennessee isn't, however it's a 2 hour flight or a 15 hour drive and I am going to a completely different part of the country, with a different culture and laws.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You're not all cowards - just France. As for the jealousy thing - a lot of it does seem that way. When we hear speeches on how we should listen to Europe because you're countries are older - it does seem like their is a resentment there.

Anyone in Europe said that? Can't remember anyone ver having said that (a quote would be nice )

As for geographical comparisons - Europeans always consider all the states as the same. Very few I have found - understand our state rights or even how our government works. But many criticize Americans for generalizations and our lack of understanding of your laws. It's the same thing. Do you know how many people have told me that they thought New Jersey is part of New York?

And I've heard of Americans thinking Norway is the capital of Sweden (a friend of mine had a long argument with an American about this). Does that mean many Americans think that Norway is the capital of Sweden?

I do think a lot of it is a rearguard action against the European attitude and prejudice. How many times do I have to hear as proof that Americans don't go anywhere - the fact that few Americans have passwords. Europeans seem to ignore the fact or don't know that we can travel the ENTIRE North American continent without one.

Of course we know you travel a lot - ever seen that Sherif on holiday in James Bond?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
Anyone in Europe said that? Can't remember anyone ver having said that (a quote would be nice )

yes - I have heard it from Europeans. Fat Middle said this basically on the "Swedish Referendum for the Euro" thread. But I have heard it from others too.

And I've heard of Americans thinking Norway is the capital of Sweden (a friend of mine had a long argument with an American about this). Does that mean many Americans think that Norway is the capital of Sweden?

I agree there are ignorant Americans - as I have repeatedly said. But too many times I get the impression that Europeans think ignorance is a one way street and that it is only us who don't understand everything about you guys and that Europe doesn't have to understand us - they just need opinions of us.

Of course we know you travel a lot - ever seen that Sherif on holiday in James Bond?

I actually Have never seen that.