Tolkien Errors and Anachronisms

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

I have nothing more to add, the last word is yours.

Not the last word.
This is exhaustively discussed in the book. Not everything is, but this is.
"Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire,desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning." the council of Elrond
"All is vain, you say, if he has the Ring. Why should he think it not vain to assail us, if we have it?" "He is not yet sure, " said Gandalf, "and he has not built up his power by waiting until his enemies are secure, as we have done. Also, we could not learn how to wield the full power all in a day. Indeed it can be used only by one master alone, not by many; and he will look for a time of strife, ere one of the great among us makes himself master and puts down the others." the last debate
Traditional fairy tales often have a motif of one vulnerable spot on an otherwise immortal foe. The Mistletoe was Baldur's, the spot on the heel was Achilles', and I'm not sure of the origin of that "place my life in an object or finger bone and hide it" business, but there are enough such tales of vulnerability that the "purloined letter" approach isn't too far-fetched.

It's Sauron's hubris that gets him. He thinks are beings are so "made in his image" that he just can't conceive they would sacrifice themselves and their material progress for a "greater good."

[ecthelion]

Anyone here plays Warcraft\Empire Earth\etc.?
When you guard all the perimeter of your base, do you also guard every critical building inside? :thoughtful:

BTW, I really need some more smileys for my personal moods.. I know there was a thread about it, but it's not so easy to use.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

It's Sauron's hubris that gets him. He thinks are beings are so "made in his image" that he just can't conceive they would sacrifice themselves and their material progress for a "greater good."

Actually, it's way more than this which is what I've been trying repeatedly to get across. [I actually don't care for this icon, it's rude, if you think about it, something we probably wouldn't do in a conversation of this nature in "real life"]

Sauron's hubris, as you put it, was not merely that he couldn't conceive of others destroying the ring under the circumstances. If that was it, I'd have stopped posting long ago here.

It was rather that he made no serious effort we know of to seek input from others whose conceptions may have differed from his own for him to then turn down, as generals do.

Or perhaps he did. The best we can say is that Tolkien didn't tell us anything in that direction.

One day, I'd love to see some fan fiction written from Sauron's POV. Maybe it would go something like this ...

Sauron: Listen up, orcs, trolls, fell beasts, Nazgul, Nazgul mounts, wargs, and evil men that have come over to my side (BWA-HA-HA!). I called you together today for this Council of Sauron to inform you of my latest orders in connection with my plan for total ME domination! You agree, don't you, that my plans are perfect and unassailable?

Orcs: You rule, Sauron, they're perfect!

Trolls, Fell Beasts, Nazgul, Nazgul Mounts, and Wargs: Major +1s!

One of the Evil Men: Uh, Sauron - I hate to say this but listen, I wasn't always evil, once I actually was [shudder!] good and because of that, I can conceive of some of what the "good guys" think in these situations. I know this is going to totally blow your mind but ... seriously ... they have some dudes over there on the other side of the river that would actually destroy your ring before letting you get it or even using it themselves. At least send out some more of your spies ...

Sauron: Shut the f- up you a-hole. Nobody thinks of anything I don't think of first. [To his guards] Throw that sorry excuse of a man down the well and absolutely continue to leave Mount Doom completely and utterly unguarded. Next on the agenda: where are those reports I ordered on our Haradrim recruiting efforts?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Actually, it's way more than this which is what I've been trying repeatedly to get across. [I actually don't care for this icon, it's rude, if you think about it, something we probably wouldn't do in a conversation of this nature in "real life"]

Sauron's hubris, as you put it, was not merely that he couldn't conceive of others destroying the ring under the circumstances. If that was it, I'd have stopped posting long ago here.

It was rather that he made no serious effort we know of to seek input from others whose conceptions may have differed from his own for him to then turn down, as generals do.

Or perhaps he did. The best we can say is that Tolkien didn't tell us anything in that direction.

One day, I'd love to see some fan fiction written from Sauron's POV. Maybe it would go something like this ...

Sauron: Listen up, orcs, trolls, fell beasts, Nazgul, Nazgul mounts, wargs, and evil men that have come over to my side (BWA-HA-HA!). I called you together today for this Council of Sauron to inform you of my latest orders in connection with my plan for total ME domination! You agree, don't you, that my plans are perfect and unassailable?

Orcs: You rule, Sauron, they're perfect!

Trolls, Fell Beasts, Nazgul, Nazgul Mounts, and Wargs: Major +1s!

One of the Evil Men: Uh, Sauron - I hate to say this but listen, I wasn't always evil, once I actually was [shudder!] good and because of that, I can conceive of some of what the "good guys" think in these situations. I know this is going to totally blow your mind but ... seriously ... they have some dudes over there on the other side of the river that would actually destroy your ring before letting you get it or even using it themselves. At least send out some more of your spies ...

Sauron: Shut the f- up you a-hole. Nobody thinks of anything I don't think of first. [To his guards] Throw that sorry excuse of a man down the well and absolutely continue to leave Mount Doom completely and utterly unguarded. Next on the agenda: where are those reports I ordered on our Haradrim recruiting efforts?

Sorry, Jon, my rolleyes was at myself, for not being able to let a topic go. No offense intended.

Well, I mean, megalomaniacs are notoriously poor at team building, kwim? Goes with the territory.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Sorry, Jon, my rolleyes was at myself, for not being able to let a topic go. No offense intended.

Well, I mean, megalomaniacs are notoriously poor at team building, kwim? Goes with the territory.

Jon is trying to introduce a modern concept and procedure into Middle Earth.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Jon is trying to introduce a modern concept and procedure into Middle Earth.

Rule by committee. I'm sure it was all the rage under the Caesars, and Alexander the Great.

"He (and his fact finding team) bestrides the Narrow world like a Colossus"

Doesn't have the same ring (if you'll pardon the pun.)

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Jon is trying to introduce a modern concept and procedure into Middle Earth.

A fair observation but, in that case, so did Elrond when he pulled together his Council and asked essentially, "All right, friends and acquaintances - whadda we gonna do now?!" We could also cite Manwe the Valar of seeking counsel in this manner. And even Sauron, Tolkien wrote, relied heavily on spies to gather info. he would otherwise have been unaware of, isn't that true and an express admission by the Big Evildoer that he didn't know everything?!

Look, don't take my comments as a criticism of Tolkien. Don't even take it as an anachronism or literal error. Take it as an observation that, for one guy at least, Sauron did (or didn't do) things that a 10 year old would have thought of doing.

P.S. And I apologize for lying earlier (it wasn't my last comment ).

P.P.S. Where's Olmer when you need him - I'm waiting for his latest theory that Gandalf and Elrond knowingly lied when they told the others that destroying the ring wasn't something Sauron could conceive of anyone doing so they could cut their own side deal.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Well, I mean, megalomaniacs are notoriously poor at team building, kwim? Goes with the territory.

LOL!

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

A fair observation but, in that case, so did Elrond when he pulled together his Council and asked essentially, "All right, friends and acquaintances - whadda we gonna do now?!"

I would say this is a rather significant misreading of the Council of Elrond. First, unlike Sauron, Elrond isn't commanding large armies nor is he demanding troops from "treaty partners." These beings for reasons of their own have all come to him for advice and seeking answers. Elrond then calls a counsel to discuss and decide on a matter that concerns all the free peoples of Middle Earth who have representatives who have "by chance" come to him at the propitious moment. So we're already attempting to compare disparate things.
Sauron comannds his forces as a tyrant, Elrond seeks the counsel about a non-military matter concerning all of them from peers of various peoples who live in Middle Earth.

Second, Elrond and Gandalf both know what conclusion they want to come too: destroy the Ring, the question to be decided is how that is to be achieved. They really aren't seeking different perspectives, but rather attempting to impart wisdom.

We could also cite Manwe the Valar of seeking counsel in this manner.

I would say that like above, this isn't really the same thing as what you propose for Sauron.

And even Sauron, Tolkien wrote, relied heavily on spies to gather info. he would otherwise have been unaware of, isn't that true and an express admission by the Big Evildoer that he didn't know everything?!

Who claimed he knew everything? He isn't seeking the spy's opinions, but information. Hardly the same thing.

Look, don't take my comments as a criticism of Tolkien. Don't even take it as an anachronism or literal error. Take it as an observation that, for one guy at least, Sauron did (or didn't do) things that a 10 year old would have thought of doing.

I don't take your comments as a criticism of Tolkien. I do take them as an anacrhonism on the part of one reader who wants a character to act like a modern commander rather than a pre-modern tyrant. I also seriously doubt that any but the most precocious 10 year old would have thought it, especially when we see a) that Sauron wasn't vulnerable there EXCEPT when there is "luck" and eucatastrophe (divine fingers from outside the story) involved and b) even modern countries and modern armies don't do what you say they should (there are very few bases on the Mississippi River in the US for example, much less headquartered or scheduled fly overs of NYC--key, vulnerable spots.)

[Jon S.]

Every army base and every arms depot in this country, however, minor, is guarded at all times (and if they're not and weapons are stolen, if people learn of it, heads roll). You may say Mount Doom was not an army base or depot and that's correct but what it was was a true point of vulnerability for Sauron that a 10 year old would have posted a guard at.

Your other examples are inappropos. The U.S. had a satellite system in place and other intelligence at hand plus a missle array at the Pentagon itself but we missed or misread what they told us and so the World Trade Center and Pentagon weren't protected. Sauron didn't even take a step to post reconnaisance at or around Mount Doom.

Forkbeard, we'll have to agree to disagree. Peace.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

No, you're wrong.

No, I'm right.

Every army base and every arms depot in this country, however, minor, is guarded at all times (and if they're not and weapons are stolen, if people learn of it, heads roll).

Exactly, every base and depot, but not every vulnerable spot. The Cracks of Doom were neither a base, nor a depot, and so the comparison you are making is a false one.

You may say Mount Doom was not an army base or depot and that's correct but what it was was a true point of vulnerability for Sauron that a 10 year old would have posted a guard at.

Hey, quit anticipating my response! It was a true point of vulnerability only because of eucatastrophe. Remember that Frodo and Sam did NOT make it into Mordor uncaptured and undetected. In normal terms, Mount Doom wasn't a point of vulnerability to be guarded anymore than constant convoys patrol I-90 or I-80 or I-5, all major corridors and vulnerable.



Forkbeard, you and I just disagree.[/QUOTE]

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Every army base and every arms depot in this country, however, minor, is guarded at all times (and if they're not and weapons are stolen, if people learn of it, heads roll). You may say Mount Doom was not an army base or depot and that's correct but what it was was a true point of vulnerability for Sauron that a 10 year old would have posted a guard at.

Your other examples are inappropos. The U.S. had a satellite system in place and other intelligence at hand plus a missle array at the Pentagon itself but we missed or misread what they told us and so the World Trade Center and Pentagon weren't protected. Sauron didn't even take a step to post reconnaisance at or around Mount Doom.

Jon, aren't you looking in the wrong direction? You might equally criticize Sauron for failing to lock down the Shire when he found out the ring was there. For not collecting the shards of Narsil? For letting the heir of Gondor survive? (for untold generations) For underestimating the security risk posed by Saruman. There are dozens of things he might have done (in the ages he was rebuilding) that would have sealed the opportunities much more finally than mounting a detail on the cracks of doom.

This is the way the story went, but there are many choices that MIGHT have been the critical one.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

No, I'm right.

Whatever. Now let's return to the issue.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Mount Doom wasn't a point of vulnerability to be guarded anymore than constant convoys patrol I-90 or I-80 or I-5, all major corridors and vulnerable.

This argument is best left to speak for itself.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Jon, aren't you looking in the wrong direction? You might equally criticize Sauron for failing to lock down the Shire when he found out the ring was there. For not collecting the shards of Narsil? For letting the heir of Gondor survive? (for untold generations) For underestimating the security risk posed by Saruman. There are dozens of things he might have done (in the ages he was rebuilding) that would have sealed the opportunities much more finally than mounting a detail on the cracks of doom.

This is the way the story went, but there are many choices that MIGHT have been the critical one.

True and fair. I can only respond that the failure to address additional vulnerabilities in far away lands doesn't (and didn't!) negate the failure to secure the site within one's direct control.

[Jon S.]

P.S. If nothing else, at least we now have some regular posting happening here for a couple of days.

[Wally]

Sorry - been away for a bit.

To answer someone's question, 'hola' was said by Shagrat to Gorbag immediately following Sam's battle with Shelob, just before the Orcs find Frodo. 'Hola' is uniquely Spanish, and I had tied that in with the 'coney' reference, wondering if that was some Tolkien wordplay or subtle jest. There have since been many comments on etymology, Latin derivatives, etc., but it is unclear to me just what any of that has to do with a fictional Middle-Earth and languages that Tolkien invented on his own.

Tolkien himself says that Sauron became "aware of the magnitude of his own folly" in leaving Mount Doom unguarded. This would have taken only a few Orcs out of thousands, and I think a much better plot device would have been for there to have been such a guard in place, which Frodo and Sam were going to have to deal with somehow, but instead they find that Gollum had managed to strangle them prior to their arrival at the Chambers of Fire. This, of course, being necessary to prevent loss of the Ring to the Orcs at the very end.

In the spirit of the arguments preceding, one could very well ask just why there was such a considerable guard of Orcs at Cirith Ungol if Shelob had it so well guarded on her own. My opinion is that if such as guard had been provided in the one location, it should have been provided at the other. This is, IMHO, another Tolkien plot-hole.

[Olmer]

Lets start with: Gandalf knows about Saurons as much as Sauron knows about Gandalfs.
So, the discussion about Sauron’s irrationality in conducting his business is strictly based on Gandalf’s hearsay, an educated guess, at best.
To give the advises on farther actions considering the salvation of ME, you need to know the strategy of your opponent.Where Gandalf has got an information of what Sauron thinks and what Sauron's plans, that he can proclaim it with such unshakable aplomb? His best spies, the eagles, could tell him about some movements of the enemy’s army, but not about what Sauron thought or said.
I think, that such assurance could come from a personal contact, in a manner of some kind of parley with Sauron, where both sides have discussed plans considering the Ring, and came to some mutual agreement: Sauron was also interested in the destruction of the Ring.
Then all his seems to be unreasonable misconducts could be easily explained by his cooperation in accordance with the joint plan.

To Jon S. How could I let down of your optimistic expectations!

[The Gaffer]

I don't think there was a significant guard at Cirith Ungol. The fact that they were a crack suicide patrol seems like more of a plot hole

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Cirith Ungol is more reflective of Orc management style than of Sauron's plotting. Shelob served the same function for that guardhouse as Gollum did for the Goblins in the Hobbit. You could send a somewhat troublesome or politically suspect underling down there on an errand. If he made it back, he'd have had a live ammo training exercise. If he didn't, you had his stuff. Meanwhile, it was a pretty painless way to remind people they wanted to stay on your good side, such as it was.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Wally

Sorry - been away for a bit.

To answer someone's question, 'hola' was said by Shagrat to Gorbag immediately following Sam's battle with Shelob, just before the Orcs find Frodo. 'Hola' is uniquely Spanish, and I had tied that in with the 'coney' reference, wondering if that was some Tolkien wordplay or subtle jest. There have since been many comments on etymology, Latin derivatives, etc., but it is unclear to me just what any of that has to do with a fictional Middle-Earth and languages that Tolkien invented on his own.

Tolkien didn't write LoTR in Quenya or Sindarin or Black Speech, he wrote it in English. Yes, we have words and phrases from those invented languages in the novel, but nonetheless the main language is English. "Hola" is an English word, has been for 5 centuries. Might as well say that "quest" or "moutains" or "forest" are anachronisms since they were borrowed from other languages into English centuries ago too. But coney, hola, etc are not "uniquely" Spanish and have long been part of the English language, the language Tolkien wrote in.

Tolkien himself says that Sauron became "aware of the magnitude of his own folly" in leaving Mount Doom unguarded.

No he doesn't. He isn't speaking in those lines of having Mt Doom unguarded, but rather the strategem that Gandalf and Elrond hatched and Aragorn aided in keeping Sauron's attention on them and on war and not on a lonely hobbit doggedly dragging the Ring to its point of origin.

This would have taken only a few Orcs out of thousands, and I think a much better plot device would have been for there to have been such a guard in place, which Frodo and Sam were going to have to deal with somehow, but instead they find that Gollum had managed to strangle them prior to their arrival at the Chambers of Fire. This, of course, being necessary to prevent loss of the Ring to the Orcs at the very end.

SO if you don't like the way Tolkien wrote it, why read it and comment on it? On what grounds is this a "better plot device" much less a "much better" than what is written in the text?

In the spirit of the arguments preceding, one could very well ask just why there was such a considerable guard of Orcs at Cirith Ungol if Shelob had it so well guarded on her own. My opinion is that if such as guard had been provided in the one location, it should have been provided at the other. This is, IMHO, another Tolkien plot-hole.

Shelob was a free agent, there was no guarantee that she would stop everyone going through. MOre importantly, the Tower of Cirith Ungol was situated to guard BOTH the upper entrances to Shelob and the pass and road leading into Mordor at that point AND the road going down to Minas Morgul. Further, like the Teeth, it is the ENTRANCE to the land of Mordor and hardly on the same level as Mt. Doom. Guarding an entrance to the palace hardly means that the parlor needs a guard too.