How powerful were these 'revised' Balrogs really? - Page 4

Kevin McIntyre · 01-17-2002, 12:42 AM

Thanks Michael. Which reminds me that I can't find my edition of Tolkien's Letters.

This was what i was pondering when the discussion came to how much (and what the nature of ) power the elven rings bring. I had thought Tolkien didn't see the elven rings as a tool in war, unlike the one ring.

afro-elf · 01-17-2002, 06:04 AM

Michael a question.

Its says that Sauron never touched the 3.

Did he AND the Elves make the 9 and 7?

Was it only Sauron?

Why did he (Sauron ) not make Elven rings also ,IF he had made the 7 and the 9?

It seems to my limited knowledge he made the 9, 7, and the one, but skipped the 3.

If the 3 were forged in secret, why didn't Sauron make his own 3 for the Elves?

Agburanar · 01-17-2002, 09:00 AM

The nine rings, they made the bearer invisible yes? Hence the ringwraiths faded. If, when Bilbo or Frodo wears the ring the hobbit's clothes become invisible as well, why don't the black rider's cloaks become invisible? Could it be because they have already faded and so do not need to wear the rings anymore?

Lelondul · 01-17-2002, 12:19 PM

I don't know for sure that the nine rings for men made them invisible Agburanar. We do know that all the rings (save the Three for the Elven Kings, which were never touched by Sauron), eroded the soul of it's wearer to the point of making them wraiths, and thus likely invisible to the 'real world'.

Wasn't something said to the effect of: "the nine have ridden forth from Barad Dur disguised as riders in black."? This suggests to me that they were something altogether more fearsome and dread than simply 'black riders' and carried whatever guise Sauron deemed appropriate for a given mission. Black Riders are at least humanoid and could thus more easily gather information for their mission (as they did when tracking the fellowship).

There's my two coppers and then some

bropous · 01-17-2002, 01:04 PM

Good tangent re: why the Nazgul were "disguised as Riders in Black". Now, if the Nazgul had only gone out in their "non-disgused" form, what would that have been? If it were formless, just basically a black shadow, how effective might that have been in the gathering of information. Might they have been even more effective in spying and eavesdropping, or would their "terror" been so great as to stifle conversation even when unseen but in proximity? Is it possible that in being disguised, they not only kept their identity secret to most commonfolk, but also kept the terror which accompanied them "under wraps," as it were, toned down to the point they could interact and inquire?

Kevin McIntyre · 01-17-2002, 02:29 PM

The terror of the Nazgul actually increased when they were in their natural Wraith selves - hence the absolute terror on the Pelenor fields. The Black Rider guise allowed them to move without as much fuss (although animals seemed to see them plain enough and they still scared everyone they came across).

orald · 01-17-2002, 05:40 PM

So it would be safe to say,for one reason or another,that the nazgul increased in power,as the trilogy went along?

Ñólendil · 01-17-2002, 06:21 PM

The Lord of the Rings is one story, not a Trilogy (as it is often called). Tolkien says in a Letter that the Witchking was enhanced by Sauron with demonic power before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

Kevin McIntyre · 01-17-2002, 06:30 PM

There abilities depended on there guise not on any evolution of there character during the writing of LOTR. And like Inoldonil stated their power was derived from Sauron, so they were really an extention fo the Dark Lord anyway.

bropous · 01-17-2002, 08:44 PM

Of course, Inoldonil, the King of the Nazgul's power would have been greatly enhanced had he charged his ring first in the green lantern thingy.

Michael Martinez · 01-17-2002, 10:37 PM

Sauron approached the Elves sometime in the Second Age, suggesting they could make Middle-earth a place of bliss and everlasting beauty, much as the Valar had done in Aman. Tolkien says that only the Elves of Eregion accepted his overtures, and they studied under him for several centuries. Finally, in S.A., they began forging the Rings of Power together with Sauron. After the Seven and the Nine had been completed, he returned to Mordor. Celebrimbor then made the Three, and Sauron then made the One.

It was the Elves' purpose to use the Rings of Power to control Middle-earth, to slow or prevent the decay of all the things they loved which Time would relentlessly bring about. The Elves were trying to avoid having to sail over Sea. It was their doom to eventually fade and become wraiths, powerless to enjoy or interact with the physical (living) world.

Almost 100 years Sauron made the One Ring, during which time Celebrimbor had bestowed Vilya and Narya upon Gil-galad, and Nenya upon Galadriel, Sauron invaded Eregion. He seized the Nine and learned where the Seven had been hidden from Celebrimbor. At some point after this, Sauron took possession of the Seven. Eventually, he was defeated and driven back to Mordor. There he perverted the Seven and the Nine and gave them to Dwarves and Men. It was now Sauron's purpose to use the Seven and the Nine to create agents through whom he could command the races of Dwarves and Men.

The Dwarves could not be rendered invisible, nor corrupted to wraithdom, and therefore they never became his slaves. Men, however, used the Rings to become invisible, and to practice sorcery. They became great kings and warriors, and sorcerors. But eventually they all faded and became wraiths, enslaved to Sauron's will (and the One Ring, which were not entirely separate).

The Nazgul retained a semblance of their former bodies, but Tolkien makes it clear that they had to use spells and additional clothing (the black robes) to interact with the physical (living) world.

If I interpret The Lord of the Rings correctly, Merry's sword broke the spell which bound the Lord of the Nazgul's "unseen sinews" (his unseen flesh) to his will. That is, Merry's sword, when he thrust it into the Lord of the Nazgul, stripped him of the ability to command the pseudo-body that the Lord of the Nazgul had enchanted for himself. Eowyn "slew" this enchanted body, or more precisely destroyed it. The Lord of the Nazgul, being then only a weak and powerless wraith, returned to Sauron in the Barad-dur.

afro-elf · 01-17-2002, 11:13 PM

Ok, I think it has been cleared up for me.

The 7 and the 9 were not SPECIFICALLY made for Dwarves and Men. They were rings that were as Tolkien said " essays in the Craft"

Sauron corrupted these.

Ñólendil · 01-20-2002, 07:07 PM

The Seven and the Nine weren't exactly the essays in the Craft. They were among the twenty Great Rings of Power. By 'essays in the Craft' I think Gandalf meant the lesser Rings.

Michael Martinez · 01-21-2002, 01:51 AM

The lesser rings are not named or shown in the book. Presumably, some still exist by the time of the War of the Ring, but we can only infer that Gandalf believed some might still be available. He wasn't sure that Bilbo's ring was the One Ring, because it, like the lesser rings, did not bear a gemstone. The Three, the Seven, and the Nine all had a gemstone, according to Gandalf at the Council of Elrond (he was quoting Saruman).

Naugrim · 01-21-2002, 10:45 AM

Interesting topic.

Something in the first few posts bothered me, though... the thing about how Gil-Galad took up the brunt of the fight against Sauron. Remember that Elendil was a Numenorean of the Royal House, and had Noldor, Sindar, and Maiar blood running in his veins. And that the Numenoreans at the height of their power were a force to be reckoned with. Which is why Sauron pissed in his pants and choose to surrender and use deception and guile to bring about the downfall of Numenor rather than slugging it out in a stand-up fight. And would the Valar have needed Eru's intervention if Ar-Pharazon's armada wasn't a genuine threat to the safety of Aman? I say Elendil did more than his fair share in the fight against Sauron.

Michael Martinez · 01-21-2002, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Naugrim
Interesting topic.

Something in the first few posts bothered me, though... the thing about how Gil-Galad took up the brunt of the fight against Sauron. Remember that Elendil was a Numenorean of the Royal House, and had Noldor, Sindar, and Maiar blood running in his veins. And that the Numenoreans at the height of their power were a force to be reckoned with. Which is why Sauron pissed in his pants and choose to surrender and use deception and guile to bring about the downfall of Numenor rather than slugging it out in a stand-up fight. And would the Valar have needed Eru's intervention if Ar-Pharazon's armada wasn't a genuine threat to the safety of Aman? I say Elendil did more than his fair share in the fight against Sauron.

You way overrate the Numenoreans. Sauron could have destroyed Ar-Pharazon's army by unleashing his full power against it. He had, after all, aided in the shaping of the world.

And the Valar could also have taken action against the Numenoreans, who were really incapable of harming the Valar (after all, the Valar only had to become incorporeal and set up something like the Girdle of Melian to keep the Numenoreans from hurting anyone).

The Valar laid down their guardianship because the Numenorean rebellion was so extraordinary that the invasion morally required Iluvatar's own judgement. The Valar simply didn't have the authority to put down a rebellion of that magnitude by the Children of Iluvatar.

Agburanar · 01-22-2002, 05:26 AM

In the appendices of LotR doesn't it mention that the king of the Numernorians who sailed from Lossoth with two of the palantiri (can't remember his name) had a ring? Considering that all the rings mentioned in LotR have some kind of power this could have been a lesser ring?

Naugrim · 01-22-2002, 09:24 AM

That was Arvedui. The ring he had was the Ring of Barahir, which dated back to the First Age, and had no real power of its own, except being an extremely valuable heirloom.

Ñólendil · 01-22-2002, 06:50 PM

Didn't Finrod bring the Ring to Middle-earth from Tirion? If so it's value is even greater than you make it, for it's greater ancientry. Er, is that a word?

afro-elf · 01-22-2002, 10:06 PM

I think the word you may been seacrching for is antiquity.

01-17-2002, 06:04 AM	#2
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Michael a question. Its says that Sauron never touched the 3. Did he AND the Elves make the 9 and 7? Was it only Sauron? Why did he (Sauron ) not make Elven rings also ,IF he had made the 7 and the 9? It seems to my limited knowledge he made the 9, 7, and the one, but skipped the 3. If the 3 were forged in secret, why didn't Sauron make his own 3 for the Elves? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 01-17-2002 at 06:08 AM.

01-17-2002, 12:19 PM	#4
Lelondul Swan-buggerer Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The rainy, grey north Posts: 69	I don't know for sure that the nine rings for men made them invisible Agburanar. We do know that all the rings (save the Three for the Elven Kings, which were never touched by Sauron), eroded the soul of it's wearer to the point of making them wraiths, and thus likely invisible to the 'real world'. Wasn't something said to the effect of: "the nine have ridden forth from Barad Dur disguised as riders in black."? This suggests to me that they were something altogether more fearsome and dread than simply 'black riders' and carried whatever guise Sauron deemed appropriate for a given mission. Black Riders are at least humanoid and could thus more easily gather information for their mission (as they did when tracking the fellowship). There's my two coppers and then some __________________ - Lelond, your friendly neighborhood Adan

01-17-2002, 01:04 PM	#5
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Good tangent re: why the Nazgul were "disguised as Riders in Black". Now, if the Nazgul had only gone out in their "non-disgused" form, what would that have been? If it were formless, just basically a black shadow, how effective might that have been in the gathering of information. Might they have been even more effective in spying and eavesdropping, or would their "terror" been so great as to stifle conversation even when unseen but in proximity? Is it possible that in being disguised, they not only kept their identity secret to most commonfolk, but also kept the terror which accompanied them "under wraps," as it were, toned down to the point they could interact and inquire? __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-17-2002, 06:21 PM	#8
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	The Lord of the Rings is one story, not a Trilogy (as it is often called). Tolkien says in a Letter that the Witchking was enhanced by Sauron with demonic power before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-17-2002, 08:44 PM	#10
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Of course, Inoldonil, the King of the Nazgul's power would have been greatly enhanced had he charged his ring first in the green lantern thingy. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-17-2002, 12:42 AM	#1
Kevin McIntyre Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bree Posts: 148	Thanks Michael. Which reminds me that I can't find my edition of Tolkien's Letters. This was what i was pondering when the discussion came to how much (and what the nature of ) power the elven rings bring. I had thought Tolkien didn't see the elven rings as a tool in war, unlike the one ring.

01-17-2002, 09:00 AM	#3
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	The nine rings, they made the bearer invisible yes? Hence the ringwraiths faded. If, when Bilbo or Frodo wears the ring the hobbit's clothes become invisible as well, why don't the black rider's cloaks become invisible? Could it be because they have already faded and so do not need to wear the rings anymore?

01-17-2002, 02:29 PM	#6
Kevin McIntyre Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bree Posts: 148	The terror of the Nazgul actually increased when they were in their natural Wraith selves - hence the absolute terror on the Pelenor fields. The Black Rider guise allowed them to move without as much fuss (although animals seemed to see them plain enough and they still scared everyone they came across).

01-17-2002, 05:40 PM	#7
orald Enting Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 2 blocks from Minas Tirith Posts: 59	So it would be safe to say,for one reason or another,that the nazgul increased in power,as the trilogy went along?

01-17-2002, 06:30 PM	#9
Kevin McIntyre Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bree Posts: 148	There abilities depended on there guise not on any evolution of there character during the writing of LOTR. And like Inoldonil stated their power was derived from Sauron, so they were really an extention fo the Dark Lord anyway.

01-17-2002, 10:37 PM	#11
Michael Martinez Elven Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 892	Sauron approached the Elves sometime in the Second Age, suggesting they could make Middle-earth a place of bliss and everlasting beauty, much as the Valar had done in Aman. Tolkien says that only the Elves of Eregion accepted his overtures, and they studied under him for several centuries. Finally, in S.A., they began forging the Rings of Power together with Sauron. After the Seven and the Nine had been completed, he returned to Mordor. Celebrimbor then made the Three, and Sauron then made the One. It was the Elves' purpose to use the Rings of Power to control Middle-earth, to slow or prevent the decay of all the things they loved which Time would relentlessly bring about. The Elves were trying to avoid having to sail over Sea. It was their doom to eventually fade and become wraiths, powerless to enjoy or interact with the physical (living) world. Almost 100 years Sauron made the One Ring, during which time Celebrimbor had bestowed Vilya and Narya upon Gil-galad, and Nenya upon Galadriel, Sauron invaded Eregion. He seized the Nine and learned where the Seven had been hidden from Celebrimbor. At some point after this, Sauron took possession of the Seven. Eventually, he was defeated and driven back to Mordor. There he perverted the Seven and the Nine and gave them to Dwarves and Men. It was now Sauron's purpose to use the Seven and the Nine to create agents through whom he could command the races of Dwarves and Men. The Dwarves could not be rendered invisible, nor corrupted to wraithdom, and therefore they never became his slaves. Men, however, used the Rings to become invisible, and to practice sorcery. They became great kings and warriors, and sorcerors. But eventually they all faded and became wraiths, enslaved to Sauron's will (and the One Ring, which were not entirely separate). The Nazgul retained a semblance of their former bodies, but Tolkien makes it clear that they had to use spells and additional clothing (the black robes) to interact with the physical (living) world. If I interpret The Lord of the Rings correctly, Merry's sword broke the spell which bound the Lord of the Nazgul's "unseen sinews" (his unseen flesh) to his will. That is, Merry's sword, when he thrust it into the Lord of the Nazgul, stripped him of the ability to command the pseudo-body that the Lord of the Nazgul had enchanted for himself. Eowyn "slew" this enchanted body, or more precisely destroyed it. The Lord of the Nazgul, being then only a weak and powerless wraith, returned to Sauron in the Barad-dur. __________________ http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ http://www.michael-martinez.com/ http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/

01-17-2002, 11:13 PM	#12
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Ok, I think it has been cleared up for me. The 7 and the 9 were not SPECIFICALLY made for Dwarves and Men. They were rings that were as Tolkien said " essays in the Craft" Sauron corrupted these. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-20-2002, 07:07 PM	#13
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	The Seven and the Nine weren't exactly the essays in the Craft. They were among the twenty Great Rings of Power. By 'essays in the Craft' I think Gandalf meant the lesser Rings. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-21-2002, 01:51 AM	#14
Michael Martinez Elven Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 892	The lesser rings are not named or shown in the book. Presumably, some still exist by the time of the War of the Ring, but we can only infer that Gandalf believed some might still be available. He wasn't sure that Bilbo's ring was the One Ring, because it, like the lesser rings, did not bear a gemstone. The Three, the Seven, and the Nine all had a gemstone, according to Gandalf at the Council of Elrond (he was quoting Saruman). __________________ http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ http://www.michael-martinez.com/ http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/

01-21-2002, 10:45 AM	#15
Naugrim Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philippines Posts: 15	Interesting topic. Something in the first few posts bothered me, though... the thing about how Gil-Galad took up the brunt of the fight against Sauron. Remember that Elendil was a Numenorean of the Royal House, and had Noldor, Sindar, and Maiar blood running in his veins. And that the Numenoreans at the height of their power were a force to be reckoned with. Which is why Sauron pissed in his pants and choose to surrender and use deception and guile to bring about the downfall of Numenor rather than slugging it out in a stand-up fight. And would the Valar have needed Eru's intervention if Ar-Pharazon's armada wasn't a genuine threat to the safety of Aman? I say Elendil did more than his fair share in the fight against Sauron.

01-22-2002, 05:26 AM	#17
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	In the appendices of LotR doesn't it mention that the king of the Numernorians who sailed from Lossoth with two of the palantiri (can't remember his name) had a ring? Considering that all the rings mentioned in LotR have some kind of power this could have been a lesser ring?

01-22-2002, 09:24 AM	#18
Naugrim Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philippines Posts: 15	That was Arvedui. The ring he had was the Ring of Barahir, which dated back to the First Age, and had no real power of its own, except being an extremely valuable heirloom.

01-22-2002, 06:50 PM	#19
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Didn't Finrod bring the Ring to Middle-earth from Tirion? If so it's value is even greater than you make it, for it's greater ancientry. Er, is that a word? __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-22-2002, 10:06 PM	#20
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	I think the word you may been seacrching for is antiquity. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

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