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#61 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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You aren't going to catch many flies with viniger. However, I doubt you have correctly estimated the market share of people who would frequent smoke-free establishments. Legislation is not a tool to be lightly weilded, and it can have far reaching consequences. Non-smoking on airlines is one reason I don't fly any more. I don't presume that they are missing my business, or anyone else who feels the same way. But it does have an impact. Likewise again you are overstating reality when you say non-smokers must be confined to their homes in order to remain safe from second hand smoke (if the market dictated) It's just not so. Even before regulation became commonplace, there were many areas that were off limits to smoking, due to custom or politeness, or local ordinance. It's also rather an interesting aside that the air in most homes (in the US) is rather a bit more toxic than being outside, which gives us nowhere to hide, thanks to the studies on Radon, MO, mold, dust, fungi, and who knows what else.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#62 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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Now if you keep jumping BACK in the damned hole... well maybe we can begin to talk about wilfull stupidity. Quote:
I've heard hundreds, no thousands of parent, spouses, freinds and employers say similar things about "their" addicts, so you'll just have to excuse me if I seem a tad over interested in convincing you. After all it was part of my job for a very long time.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#63 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#64 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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Oh and thanks for giving us permission to off ourselves ![]()
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#65 | |||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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If smokers were really avoiding airlines - there would have been a lot more smokers only airlines started. Instead I only ever heard of one and that one I don't even know if it's in business anymore. Also - where did I even give estimates on how many people would frequent or not frequent a certain establishment? In New Jersey - very few people smoke - at least the area I live in. So of course if you live in a high smoking area - less people would be frequenting a non-smoking restaurant. In Indiana the non-smoking areas are usually empty and here it's the opposite. So it depends on your area. Quote:
i perfectly realise that - I guess you miss the point of just requiring restaurants to install better ventalation systems so that the smoke IS contained in the smoking section. As I said above - if the majority of smokers felt they couldn't fly unless they smoked - there would be a more smokers only planes. Obviously the market isn't there to warrant it or the laws were made tougher (in which case I'm against it - there should be able to have smokers only planes) Quote:
Can you explain how local ordaninances AREN'T regulations? And i guess smokers wouldn't be filling up the malls with smoke or in the restaurants or planes if smoking was allowed. How many smokers were conserned about the affect of their smoke as they lit up in restaurants or planes on the other customers? Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-20-2002 at 10:46 PM. |
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#66 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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By the way - my friend does finally admit that he knew the consequences. He just didn't think it would happen to him or that the doctor was going to tell him that he has Cirrhosis of the Liver at the age of 25. Nor did he think he would be in a week long coma from an alcohol/drug use combination (which happened when he was 19).
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-20-2002 at 11:53 PM. |
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#67 | |||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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Of course it's easier for me to go to waffle house. They all allow smoking, and basically have stated that smokers are their market. And the hash browns rock. Quote:
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Now however I think you might be a bit surprised. Education has benefits. I for one, prefer to be outside while smoking. Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#68 |
im quite stupid
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cockermouth
Posts: 2,058
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i think most people are quite passive to smokers in certian situations. I know most dont mind if you light up in a club or pub or even on the street. But from working in a resrant it has to be non smoking because it really anoyes people then.
90% of the people i work with smoke and i dont mind it seems to keep them happy.
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Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot |
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#69 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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There's a difference between stupidity and ignorance. Quote:
Recidivism is a very real problem for addictive personalities. The stark reality is that the average life expectancy (figuring in overdoses, accidents, health problems, and crime) is about 35 years. And the recovery rate is about 20% on the first treatment bout, 25% (of the remaining population) on the second bout, and 5-10% on any remaining attempts. Simply put, most people who have "the disease" die from it. I don't particularly think it's because they want to suffer. Though there are those that probably think they deserve it. Quote:
Unfortunately, by the time they actually realize it is happening/has happened to them... it's to late. I'm not telling you to coddle your friend, or not to be angry with him. I'm not even telling you that he's not responsible to some degree for treatment failures, and he's certainly responsible for all the insane and crazy things he did while under the influence. All I'm saying is that you can't assign blame for a disease. Not in the same way you can for other actions. Stupidity doesn't enter into it. Ignorance yes, stupidity no.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#70 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-21-2002 at 01:16 PM. |
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#71 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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You never distinguised between local or federal regulations. New Jersey's laws are a lot tougher than other areas of the country. They just passed no smoking at school event - that includes teachers, parents, anyone - whether it's a football game outside or going to an amusement park on a school trip. If your at a school sponsored event - there is no smoking. Quote:
So - people have to be told that something is bad? People aren't smart even to think anymore? Were people too stupid to realise that the smoke is unhealthy for the non-smokers around them? I don't need someone to tell me that everything is bad for me to realise it is. It used to be a time where there weren't warning labels on lawns mowers saying that if you put your hand by the blades while they're moving - that your hands will get cut off. Now they do - so I guess in all actuallity people have stopped using their common sense and brains. Unless we're told about something - we're too stupid and ignorant to figure it out ourself. Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#72 | |||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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I agree there is a difference. But there is very little excuse today to claim ignorance in drug abuse or alcoholism. No. I'm sorry - me dealing with a lot of people that have had alcoholism and drug abuse problems - ignorance isn't an excuse. They all knew the potential consequences. Maybe in the 60's people didn't but I had always had drug, sex, smoking education in school. Ignorance is when you lack the knowledge - stupidity is when you choose to ignore it. Quote:
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There is a lawsuit against Six Flags Magic Mountain out in California because a woman got on a roller coaster with an undiagnosed brain aneurysm. She died on the ride. Now the husband is suing the park. He thinks there should be more warnings to the consequences of riding on a roller coaster. How would having more warnings have helped his wife? Should parks be required to give people a physical before they can ride on a roller coaster? 100's of thousands of people ride on roller coasters every day - very few die from it. But the possiblilty is always there. People must realise that. I'm sorry but anyone that doesn't is stupid in my eyes. Not ignorant, stupid. They choose to ignore the facts that they're strapped into a machine that goes 60-80 mph with NO way to stop until it comes to the end of the ride. Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-21-2002 at 01:32 PM. |
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#73 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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By the way. Your cell phone is irradiadiating me everytime you use it, causing depletion of my serotonin levels and causing me to be depressed and affecting my health. Are people too stupid to realize that or just ignorant? Of COURSE it's ignorance, and OF COURSE people have to be told something is bad ![]() Quote:
Common sense has nothing to do with survival in a complex environment. What do you think modern anxiety is all about??? [/quote] So I guess smokers didn't smoke where ever they wanted before any regulations or anything? It was impossible to go on a plane without the cabin full of smoke - or into a restaurant or at the mall or in the office. Where ever you went there was smoking. [/QUOTE] I don't agree. I have no idea how old you are, or where you've lived, but I certainly remember that it was different in the south in the 60's-70's, before regulations of any kind. Men didn't chew in front of the ladies (nor did the ladies dip snuff in front of the gents). If you asked someone not to smoke near you, they complied. If they didn't they were generally unwelcome in the establishment again, because rudeness wasn't tolerated. At least in public. I'm certainly not here to go over the schizms of my culture, they are well known. Of course, people were polite then also, and waved to their neighbors, and sat on the porch. Now all these damned people have moved into the south from the north and west coast, and it's completely different. People are getting so rude I'm starting to wish my family had moved to Brazil after the un-civil war. Perhaps you are right after all. I came from a culture where individuality, self reliance, genteelness and responsibility were considered the foundations of a persons character. I don't see that as having much application to the mass of Americans nowadays however. Whereever I look I see a mass of spoiled and entitled children. Perhaps they do need the government to take care of them, and force them to be polite and responsible ![]()
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#74 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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From the statistics, and the amount of money the goverment allots for drug awareness education, there may be a lot of people out there living under rocks. I guess they don't deserve anything however. Quote:
By the way. Why the hell does someone need an excuse? Why do you need an excuse to develop a disease? Excuses have absolutley nothing to do with it. It's a disease. You can't blame someone for getting a disease. You may have had effective education. I'm happy for you. However that doesn't mean that you are in the majority. Not at all. Quote:
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I don't particularly care to continue this discussion anymore either, it's begining to remind me of why I quit counseling addicts and alcoholics. I really dreaded family night.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#75 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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You're completely ignoring half of what I'm saying. Having the disease is not a person's fault. Deciding to first do drugs IS a person's choice. They ARE TWO DIFFERENT things. It's the chance you take. People have to accept that. A person is stupid if they think that becoming an alcoholic, or a drug addict can't happen to them. Having alcoholism - I realise is not a choice. You can be an alcoholic and never drink - the disease is still there. You don't seem to want to seperate the difference between first smoking, drug taking or drinking versus actually having the disease of addiction after the person has gotten caught up in the whole thing. Sorry - people make a CHOICE to have their first cigarette, their first drink, their first snort. By the way - i also seperate drugs out. Most people are going to become addicts to heroin. It's just the nature of the drug. So for people to think that - "oh that won't happen to me, I'll be able to control the heroin use" is pure stupidity and wishful thinking.
I can't believe you can compare CFCs, which had no odor, with smoking. When a person starts smoking there is CLEAR indication that a person's body does NOT want to accept it - that is what coughing does. The problem is - most smokers just force their body to get used to. It isn't until the smoker has done so much damage to their airways and lungs that they start to cough again. It's the bodies involuntary response to reject something that it knows is dangerous. Someone can look at a polluted lake and see that all the fish are dead and they should be able to figure out that maybe it would not be a good idea to swim there. I don't think they need to be told. All people have to do once and a while is use common sense. And by the way - I've been to the south many times and I lived in the midwest - the so-called polite places. Most people there ARE nice to people's faces and the moment the person is out of earshot - they're talking about them. At least in the northeast - if someone doesn't like you - they have no problems in letting you know. Quote:
So then what you're saying now - is that education doesn't do anything. If a person has to experience it personnally - then you can tell them until you're blue in the face and it does no good. I mean my friend saw at least 3 close friends (I was somewhat friends with one of them) that I know of die from heroin overdoses. That was BEFORE he did heroin. He didn't have to do it - he CHOSE to do it. Then he bacame addicted. If he never touched it - never asked a friend to shoot him up - he would never have suffered from heroin addiction. Yeah - he was addicted to other things already - and he wanted the more intense high - but that does not exonerate him from the fact that he first CHOSE to do it. After he did heroin the first time - yes - then it had a hold of him. Then it was out of his hand and the heroin ruled his life. Quote:
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You're problem seems to be that you think that family and friends of addicts don't understand what the addict is going through. That is NOT always the case. I AM perfectly aware of what he is going through. But you only listen to half the stuff I say. Also - I'm not giving a life history on my friend or even saying everything about how I feel about his drug use. So you have only 1% of the picture that you're basing how I feel about drug addicts or what I think about my friend.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-21-2002 at 04:44 PM. |
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#76 | ||||||
Retired Ent
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 60,631
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Also, my family won't eat in any restaurant that doesn't have a non-smoking section. It's not just smokers who choose establishments based on the smoking policies. If enough businesses ban smoking, then perhaps people will reconsider trying a cigarette, or make a determined effort to quit if they've already started. Quote:
Tell me, what happens when a toy manufacturer discovers that a certain toy has a broken part that is a choking hazard to children? It's recalled, of course, even at great expense to the company. What happens when a car manufacturer learns that a defect caused the car to be dangerous? It's recalled, in the name of public safety and health, even if the company must lose money. Well guess what, tobacco kills, and I haven't heard of any recall. Big Tobacco has huge power, and that's why nothing has been done. I personally would like to see the eventual phasing out of cigarettes, but I realize a Prohibition-style thing would not work. My immediate concern is keeping the cigarettes as far away from ME as possible. BoP had a valid point about not "doing your business" in front of everyone in a restaurant. There are just things that are rude in public company, and smoking is one of them. Here's the thing. You are entitled to your choice. You have chosen to expose your body to these dangerous chemicals, despite all the known consequences. But I choose not to be exposed to the carcinogens from cigarettes. Many other people would make this choice. Both wishes cannot be simultaneously fulfilled, so which is of greater validity: the "right" of someone to poison himself and harm others in the process, or the right to remain unpoisoned? That's a no-brainer for me. Quote:
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---Ben formerly known in the forums as bmilder Owner of The Tolkien Trail and Entmoot. Buy Entmoot shirts and mugs! |
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#77 | |||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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Move them from the front to another area and there are other consequences. It's ineffective when the legislation is crafted without considering all the ramifications. Quote:
I don't know if it helps, but I'm allergic to the base used in perfumes and colognes. I start choking when I get near people using these substances. I usually get up and move. That may not be an option you are satisfied with however. Quote:
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Maybe they should ban SUV's? They certainly don't do the environment any good. Banning a product on the basis of health risk alone opens a nasty Pandora's box of issues. No more Big Mac's for you. Or ho ho's. Or Beer. Or cheap electrcity, gas guzzling vehicles etc. Some of these might be "banned" effectively. But let's get realistic. Which ones can be effectively eliminated without resorting to draconian measures that will destroy concepts such as civil liberty? (War on Drugs? are they shooting pot plants?) Quote:
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Yes you should keep ciggs as far away from you as possible. That's your right. As long as you don't deprive anyone else of their own civil liberties, I'm willing to help even. And yes, there are things that are rude in public company, like lighting up a smoke in a crowded room. Of course, conversely it could be considered rude to walk into a known establishment that condones smoking, such as a bar, and demand that everyone cease their activities so that an individual might be comfortable. I'm all for politeness. Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#78 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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![]() Don't want to compare CFC's eh? - Many things people do are "aquired tastes". Coffee. Alcohol. Red Bull (god it tastes like crap). Monkey brains. Tobacco. I guess "common sense" would tell you not to do any of those things. But people do them anyway. Why? The same reason people have always done such things. Imitation of behavior and discovery of a reward. The fact that ciggarette smoke is toxic beyond the effects of tar was not obvious, no matter what you say. Not until research began to hint at it. Hell, lead makes a wonderful paint base, and a gasoline additive. But it's also a poison. Gee, maybe it should have been "obvious". But it wasn't. Not until someone began to make connections. "Common sense" is basically useless for determining long term or complex effects. That's what modern anxiety is all about. Sometimes "common sense" is just plain wrong also, but I don't particularly feel like dredging up examples, since someone just called and said the servers aren't synching up. Oh and how do you know the people in the South and Midwest- those "polite places" are talking about you as soon as you are out of earshot, if you are out of earshot? And does the fact that someone tells you to your face that they don't like you keep them from talking about you behind your back? I don't see the rationale here.... But I also don't think its relative to the topic either. But then that's never been a major criteria of mine either.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#79 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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It doesn't matter if the person is talking about you behind your back if you already know how they feel. If they hate you to your face - then you can pretty assume that they don't say nice things about you when you're not around. But then it doens't matter anyway since they're not putting on this show of liking you. I can deal with people not liking me or others - it's the phoniness that gets to me.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 08-22-2002 at 05:01 PM. |
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#80 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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