muslims PART 2 - Page 34

***Rían*** · 02-22-2007, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Ummm....no. Martin Luther didn't believe in freedom. He believed in His Holy Infallible Self.

I think he believed that the RC church officials were not holy and infallible ...

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-23-2007, 03:14 PM

Actually, he ended up saying basically that he was infallible; he said anyone who did not follow his teachings, including Anabaptists, Calvinists, etc. was damned.

While that doesn't explicitly amount to claiming infallibility, it's certainly implied.

hectorberlioz · 02-23-2007, 03:18 PM

And he was viciously anti-semitic...

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-23-2007, 03:51 PM

"A Jew is a young devil incapable of salvation."
"If a Jew came to me asking baptism, I'd tie two rocks around his neck and throw him into the river with the words 'I baptise thee in the name of Abraham'".

I mean, people were antisemitic back then as a whole, but this is just ridiculous.

sisterandcousinandaunt · 02-23-2007, 03:57 PM

of the Most Holy and Apostolic Roman Catholic Church is in a position to sound righteous about anti-semitism or any other form of religious bigotry.

Can't be done. Millions of people murdered specifically in the name of heresy counts against it.

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-23-2007, 04:06 PM

Please, I prefer the Church of Feckin' Patriarchal Socially Retarded Geriatrics, Buffoons, Misogynists, Homophobes, And All That Crap, Inc.

A) Anti-semitism is, in this form at least, a racial bigotry, not a particularly religious one, as Martin Luther denied the capability of Jews to become Christian.

B) Your numbers are flagrantly false, the sort of thing that comes from "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" style of history.

hectorberlioz · 02-23-2007, 04:09 PM

Or the new "Merchant of Venice" movie, for that matter...what a waste of time that was.

sisterandcousinandaunt · 02-23-2007, 04:48 PM

First of all, your personal ability to deplore anti-semitism is completely unrelated to your church membership. That was absurd, and even I can't tell, rereading myself, what original idea emerged as that.

I apologise.

Second, my use of the word "heresy" was sloppy and misleading. People would only be subject to trial as heretics if they'd been baptised, even forcibly. So, to get my number I was including other activities that wouldn't be related to "heretics", but only to "infidels", such as the Crusades. Again, I was wrong to use that word.

Lief Erikson · 02-23-2007, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Millions of people murdered specifically in the name of heresy counts against it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

to get my number I was including other activities that wouldn't be related to "heretics", but only to "infidels", such as the Crusades.

According to the World English Dictionary, the word "murder" is "the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law." You're using this word, by your own admission, in reference to people killed in war. That's loaded language and doesn't present an accurate image of what happened. I'd recommend your changing it as well as the "heretic" wording.

Butterbeer · 02-23-2007, 07:36 PM

Lief Erikson · 02-23-2007, 09:27 PM

I just explained why

. It's an inaccurate word choice.

The Gaffer · 02-26-2007, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Ummm....no. Martin Luther didn't believe in freedom. He believed in His Holy Infallible Self. He encouraged Protestant nobility to suppress Catholics, and IIRC also encouraged the slaughter of Anabaptists.

I meant the Reformation

to which

Quote:

our concepts of freedom of speech owe something

sisterandcousinandaunt · 02-26-2007, 10:51 AM

From the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Quote:

the attack began 14 July, 1099. Next day the Christians entered Jerusalem from all sides and slew its inhabitants regardless of age or sex. Having accomplished their pilgrimage to the Holy Sepulchre, the knights chose as lord of the new conquest Godfrey of Bouillon, who called himself "Defender of the Holy Sepulchre".

***Rían*** · 02-26-2007, 05:47 PM

Hadn't the Muslims done a little slaying of their own before 1099?

Butterbeer · 02-26-2007, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

... That's loaded language and doesn't present an accurate image of what happened. I'd recommend your changing it ...

Why?

or perhaps a better question would be - given that "because i said so" didn't quite do it for me -

why?

**Nurvingiel** · 02-26-2007, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Ummm....no. Martin Luther didn't believe in freedom. He believed in His Holy Infallible Self. He encouraged Protestant nobility to suppress Catholics, and IIRC also encouraged the slaughter of Anabaptists.

I don't know about the slaughtering of people bit, but I do know that not only did he not have an idea of "His Holy Infallible Self," he didn't even intend to start a new church with the Reformation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

And he wanted to be Pope, too. Power mongerer.

This statement is also incorrect.

Read this, and learn something about the real Martin Luther.

Lief Erikson · 02-26-2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Why?

or perhaps a better question would be - given that "because i said so" didn't quite do it for me -

why?

Here's why, just as I said before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

According to the World English Dictionary, the word "murder" is "the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law."

War is recognized by law in the countries involved as not murder. Atrocities that are equal to or worse than murder can be committed in it, but not everyone who dies in a war is "murdered", according to the World English Dictionary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

From the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Yet this is not a case of "millions" being slaughtered. Many times, these were clashes between one army and another. Yet you're labeling warfare "murder." Which is just an inaccurate definition, according to the World English Dictionary.

Butterbeer · 02-26-2007, 07:03 PM

I rather believe i clarified i was referring rather to this statement:

Quote:

... That's loaded language and doesn't present an accurate image of what happened. I'd recommend your changing it ...

Now- apply that very quote to your own reply, and analyse it - (forgetting the grammar, naturally)

..............

dear me, what do they teach these days? ... don't they teach Logical thought processes anymore???

brownjenkins · 02-26-2007, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

War is recognized by law in the countries involved as not murder. Atrocities that are equal to or worse than murder can be committed in it, but not everyone who dies in a war is "murdered", according to the World English Dictionary.

That's because the victors write the laws, and the dictionaries.

hectorberlioz · 02-27-2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I don't know about the slaughtering of people bit, but I do know that not only did he not have an idea of "His Holy Infallible Self," he didn't even intend to start a new church with the Reformation.

This statement is also incorrect.

As you say Nurv, he wasn't trying to start his own church...

Henry VIII wasn't trying to start his own church either, he just wanted to get married again. and again. and again...

Quote:

Read this, and learn something about the real Martin Luther.

Mostly stuff I already know, but thanks anyways Nurv

.

Something interesting about Martin Luther though, he was a fellow student of the guy who would become the basis for Faust.

02-23-2007, 03:14 PM	#662
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Actually, he ended up saying basically that he was infallible; he said anyone who did not follow his teachings, including Anabaptists, Calvinists, etc. was damned. While that doesn't explicitly amount to claiming infallibility, it's certainly implied. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 02-23-2007 at 03:18 PM.

02-23-2007, 03:18 PM	#663
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	And he was viciously anti-semitic... __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

02-23-2007, 03:51 PM	#664
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	"A Jew is a young devil incapable of salvation." "If a Jew came to me asking baptism, I'd tie two rocks around his neck and throw him into the river with the words 'I baptise thee in the name of Abraham'". I mean, people were antisemitic back then as a whole, but this is just ridiculous. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

02-23-2007, 03:57 PM	#665
sisterandcousinandaunt Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,535	Um, no one espousing the infallibility of the Most Holy and Apostolic Roman Catholic Church is in a position to sound righteous about anti-semitism or any other form of religious bigotry. Can't be done. Millions of people murdered specifically in the name of heresy counts against it.

02-23-2007, 04:06 PM	#666
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Please, I prefer the Church of Feckin' Patriarchal Socially Retarded Geriatrics, Buffoons, Misogynists, Homophobes, And All That Crap, Inc. A) Anti-semitism is, in this form at least, a racial bigotry, not a particularly religious one, as Martin Luther denied the capability of Jews to become Christian. B) Your numbers are flagrantly false, the sort of thing that comes from "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" style of history. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 02-23-2007 at 04:23 PM.

02-23-2007, 04:09 PM	#667
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Or the new "Merchant of Venice" movie, for that matter...what a waste of time that was. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

02-23-2007, 04:48 PM	#668
sisterandcousinandaunt Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,535	Gwai, you're completely right, I mispoke. First of all, your personal ability to deplore anti-semitism is completely unrelated to your church membership. That was absurd, and even I can't tell, rereading myself, what original idea emerged as that. I apologise. Second, my use of the word "heresy" was sloppy and misleading. People would only be subject to trial as heretics if they'd been baptised, even forcibly. So, to get my number I was including other activities that wouldn't be related to "heretics", but only to "infidels", such as the Crusades. Again, I was wrong to use that word.

02-23-2007, 07:36 PM	#670
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	why?

02-23-2007, 09:27 PM	#671
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	I just explained why . It's an inaccurate word choice. __________________ If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do."

02-26-2007, 05:47 PM	#674
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Hadn't the Muslims done a little slaying of their own before 1099? __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
LOTR Discussion: Appendix A, Part 1	Valandil	LOTR Discussion Project	26	12-28-2007 06:36 AM
Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?	Gordis	Middle Earth	141	07-09-2006 07:16 PM
Muslims	Sween	General Messages	992	04-11-2006 11:04 AM
RELIGIOUS Debate on Terroristm-who, why, etc.	Spock	General Messages	215	09-06-2005 11:56 PM
The Quote Game - Part 5	Sister Golden Hair	Middle Earth	1984	03-24-2005 07:18 PM