muslims PART 2

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

By the way, though I side with the conservatives here on many things, I just want to take a moment to commend the liberals .

Deconstructionalist?

or

Chaos Theory?

You can't have it both ways.

Thanks for the view points-it's an uphill battle.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

It DOES mean something when they have the majority of devout. You'll find that "small" does not mean powerless, looking at it from a cultural POV. In this case the strength if their culture means everything.

What do you propose then?

I say, Swedes should get more serious about June 6th then! (National Day) Time to eat ice cream in the rain in the old town of Luleå! (That's what I did 2 years ago hehe.)

Seriously, I have no options. Except to not enact over PC and unhelpful regulations to avoid offending people - regulations that really only serve to offend other people.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

What do you propose then?

Thats the thing...they don't have much to fall back on. Deja vu?

[/QUOTE]

BTW,

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...05-661,00.html

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Thats the thing...they don't have much to fall back on. Deja vu?

What do you mean they don't have much to fall back on? Who doesn't?

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

BTW,

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...05-661,00.html

""There is no such thing as honour killings -- it is totally un-Islamic," he said. "If a (Muslim) person wishes to change their religion . . . there is no problem at all."

While Islam doesn't preach against converting religions, some Muslims do have a serious problem with it. Still, it's nice to hear that it isn't actually against Islam.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

While Islam doesn't preach against converting religions, some Muslims do have a serious problem with it. Still, it's nice to hear that it isn't actually against Islam.

But, if I'm not mistaken, it is still in the sharia and therefore also law in several countries.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

"If a (Muslim) person wishes to change their religion . . . there is no problem at all."

Hmm...I suspect that much of Muslim world has yet to realise this. In parts of Kyrgyzstan (where my mother will be going, hence I know this), people are still sometimes stoned if they convert from Islam. Usually not to death, but still...

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But, if I'm not mistaken, it is still in the sharia and therefore also law in several countries.

Yeah, I think you guys are right.

I wish the guy I quoted from Hector's article was right.

[hectorberlioz]

When I was sixteen, I read this book...

http://www.amazon.com/Princess-Story...e=UTF8&s=books

[Nurvingiel]

I was tempted to buy it, except Amazon ships to Canada for no less than $5'045'275. It looks interesting.

When I was sixteen, I read this book, which is very good, but not about Muslims.

[hectorberlioz]

I've heard of the movie...didn't Francis Ford Coppola make it?

[hectorberlioz]

It is in this spirit that I turn to you, dear and esteemed Muslim friends, to share my hopes with you and to let you know of my concerns at these particularly difficult times in our history.

I am certain that I echo your own thoughts when I bring up one of our concerns as we notice the spread of terrorism. I know that many of you have firmly rejected, also publicly, in particular any connection between your faith and terrorism and have condemned it. I am grateful to you for this, for it contributes to the climate of trust that we need.

Terrorist activity is continually recurring in various parts of the world, plunging people into grief and despair. Those who instigate and plan these attacks evidently wish to poison our relations and destroy trust, making use of all means, including religion, to oppose every attempt to build a peaceful and serene life together.

Thanks be to God, we agree on the fact that terrorism of any kind is a perverse and cruel choice which shows contempt for the sacred right to life and undermines the very foundations of all civil coexistence.

If together we can succeed in eliminating from hearts any trace of rancour, in resisting every form of intolerance and in opposing every manifestation of violence, we will turn back the wave of cruel fanaticism that endangers the lives of so many people and hinders progress towards world peace.

The task is difficult but not impossible. The believer—and all of us, as Christians and Muslims, are believers—knows that, despite his weakness, he can count on the spiritual power of prayer.

Dear friends, I am profoundly convinced that we must not yield to the negative pressures in our midst, but must affirm the values of mutual respect, solidarity and peace. The life of every human being is sacred, both for Christians and for Muslims. There is plenty of scope for us to act together in the service of fundamental moral values.

The dignity of the person and the defence of the rights which that dignity confers must represent the goal of every social endeavour and of every effort to bring it to fruition. This message is conveyed to us unmistakably by the quiet but clear voice of conscience. It is a message which must be heeded and communicated to others: should it ever cease to find an echo in peoples’ hearts, the world would be exposed to the darkness of a new barbarism.

Only through recognition of the centrality of the person can a common basis for understanding be found, one which enables us to move beyond cultural conflicts and which neutralizes the disruptive power of ideologies.

During my meeting last April with the delegates of Churches and Christian Communities and with representatives of the various religious traditions, I affirmed that “the Church wants to continue building bridges of friendship with the followers of all religions, in order to seek the true good of every person and of society as a whole.”

Past experience teaches us that, unfortunately, relations between Christians and Muslims have not always been marked by mutual respect and understanding. How many pages of history record battles and wars that have been waged, with both sides invoking the Name of God, as if fighting and killing, the enemy could be pleasing to him. The recollection of these sad events should fill us with shame, for we know only too well what atrocities have been committed in the name of religion.

The lessons of the past must help us to avoid repeating the same mistakes. We must seek paths of reconciliation and learn to live with respect for each other’s identity. The defence of religious freedom, in this sense, is a permanent imperative, and respect for minorities is a clear sign of true civilization. In this regard, it is always right to recall what the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council said about relations with Muslims.

“The Church looks upon Muslims with respect. They worship the one God living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to humanity and to whose decrees, even the hidden ones, they seek to submit themselves whole-heartedly, just as Abraham, to whom the Islamic faith readily relates itself, submitted to God…. Although considerable dissensions and enmities between Christians and Muslims may have arisen in the course of the centuries, the Council urges all parties that, forgetting past things, they train themselves towards sincere mutual understanding and together maintain and promote social justice and moral values as well as peace and freedom for all people” (Declaration Nostra Aetate, n. 3).

For us, these words of the Second Vatican Council remain the Magna Carta of the dialogue with you, dear Muslim friends, and I am glad that you have spoken to us in the same spirit and have confirmed these intentions.

You, my esteemed friends, represent some Muslim communities from this Country where I was born, where I studied and where I lived for a good part of my life. That is why I wanted to meet you. You guide Muslim believers and train them in the Islamic faith.

Teaching is the vehicle through which ideas and convictions are transmitted. Words are highly influential in the education of the mind. You, therefore, have a great responsibility for the formation of the younger generation. I learn with gratitude of the spirit in which you assume responsibility.

Christians and Muslims, we must face together the many challenges of our time. There is no room for apathy and disengagement, and even less for partiality and sectarianism. We must not yield to fear or pessimism. Rather, we must cultivate optimism and hope.

Interreligious and intercultural dialogue between Christians and Muslims cannot be reduced to an optional extra. It is in fact a vital necessity, on which in large measure our future depends.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

If I'm Pope one day, maybe my addresses will be in a big font like that, too...

[Insidious Rex]

As long as its in Times New Roman...

[hectorberlioz]

I did that so it would be harder to scan through...

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

As long as its in Times New Roman...

Is this a vision of a Liberal, and completely Un-Catholic Church comin' on?

[hectorberlioz]

Last thursday in history class the student in front of me somewhat challenged the professor who had previously said something about a lot of islamic countries being very restricting to their women. The student said that we shouldn't try to interfere, because it was "part of their culture" for women ot have this kind of lower status. "well" my teacher says, "t was part of The South's (meaning America's south) to have slaves." I hadnt expected for him to be on the same side of the issue as I, but thankfully he knows better: that just because something is a cruel custom, doesn't mean we should support it in the name of "diversity". I don't think my professor is "conservative", he doesn't seem to be...but still


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...60-601,00.html

FREEDOM FOR ISLAMIC WOMEN!
May God grant the day when a young Muslim girl doesn't have to worry about her genitals being "scissored" by her father...

[Nurvingiel]

The student said that we shouldn't try to interfere, because it was "part of their culture" for women ot have this kind of lower status.

The student said... what now?

Good for you for not smacking this moron upside the head, because violence is not the answer.

Doesn't matter whether your prof is conservative or not, no one should accept people being oppressed.

The student would have been a lot smarter to point out that in Indonesia, a predominantly Muslim country, women are not oppressed.

[hectorberlioz]

Well what amazed me was how good "culture" sounds to some people, until it's something like lopping off genitals. Some people don't understand that it's NOT JUST Burkas, not just a zero right to drive...

The student...what can I say, he probably didn't know zip about muslim countries, and seems to know little about his own (Russia)...I'm giving him a break, he was unknowledgeable on that particular subject, but he thought it was noble to defend "culture".

[Insidious Rex]

Hector,

I cant believe I need to say this but you do realize that most liberals aren’t against womens rights in Muslim countries right? Quite to the contrary…

The so called “liberals” you like to bash have actually been on the forefront of campaigns against things like genital manipulation for years and years and have been called bleeding hearts and do gooders by conservatives because of it. And this is long before Bush’s so called ‘compassionate conservatism’ farse he used to his advantage in 2000. Take a look at the people that comprise most of the humans rights groups and youll see quite an abundance of liberal folk. Saying things like liberals don’t support womens rights does make you seem just a tad out of touch. And I cant believe the liberal agenda among college kids has changed that dramatically in the decade or so since I graduated from school.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Hector,

I cant believe I need to say this but you do realize that most liberals aren’t against womens rights in Muslim countries right? Quite to the contrary…

The so called “liberals” you like to bash have actually been on the forefront of campaigns against things like genital manipulation for years and years and have been called bleeding hearts and do gooders by conservatives because of it.

The thing about the circumcision: people don't always realize TO WHAT EXTENT these kind of things go on. They think defending culture is like defending Kwanzaa.
When I said I was surprised about my history teacher's position, I was not surprised that he thought these islamic practices were wrong, I was surprised that he had brought up the argument that slavery was also a culture thing in The South, as opposed to the general idea that "we shouldn't interfere with other cultures' practices."

And this is long before Bush’s so called ‘compassionate conservatism’ farse he used to his advantage in 2000.

Indeed! But times change. Feminists no longer rail against pornography, for isntance. It used to be one of the main points of the old feminist movements: respect for yourself and your body.

Take a look at the people that comprise most of the humans rights groups and youll see quite an abundance of liberal folk.

The problem is that all these activists are firing in the wrong direction.

Saying things like liberals don’t support womens rights does make you seem just a tad out of touch.

And I cant believe the liberal agenda among college kids has changed that dramatically in the decade or so since I graduated from school.

College kidS? Did I say kids? Are you polling based on one student sitting in front of me in my history class?

[Insidious Rex]

Well thats the only sample pool you gave me. Are you saying you are using a single anecdotal incident to conclude things about liberals then?