How Sauron was depicted

[cassiopeia]

In the letters of Tolkien, referring to a confrontation between Sauron and the ringbearer that:

The form that he [Sauron] took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.

Also, Gollum says in TTT that:

'He has only four [fingers] on the Black Hand, but they are enough'

I think the evidence is strong that Sauron did have a physical form during the LOTR.

[BeardofPants]

Yes but perhaps this mechanical eye/palantir thing had fingers?

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Sauron can take form without the ring, and he did, in Mirkwood before he fled to Mordor, he also had the ring without a form after the fall of Numenor.

"There he took up again his great ring in Barad-Dur and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought for himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible, and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure"

The Silmarillion

The Eye is part of the physical description of Sauron in more than one place in the text, and in more than one incarnation of his spirit. Notice also, that in the TTT chapter Uruk-hai, the orcs refer to Sauron as the "great eye", and refer to Saruman as the "white hand". Perhaps a great waving white hand should be depicted above Orthanc.

Dunedain; Tolkien said Sauron had a physical form during the lord of the Rings, there is nothing to debate here but one's ability to cling to a hypothesis after it has been disproven.

Dunedain and Breathalizer, you guys need to read letters and perhaps the Silmarillion as well. This is getting tedious as much of what you both argue is contrary to those sources; and much of what you question is clearly discussed in those texts.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Sauron can take form without the ring, and he did, in Mirkwood before he fled to Mordor, he also had the ring without a form after the fall of Numenor.

"There he took up again his great ring in Barad-Dur and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought for himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible, and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure"

The Silmarillion

The Eye is part of the physical description of Sauron in more than one place in the text, and in more than one incarnation of his spirit. Notice also, that in the TTT chapter Uruk-hai, the orcs refer to Sauron as the "great eye", and refer to Saruman as the "white hand". Perhaps a great waving white hand should be depicted above Orthanc.

Dunedain; Tolkien said Sauron had a physical form during the lord of the Rings, there is nothing to debate here but one's ability to cling to a hypothesis after it has been disproven.

Dunedain and Breathalizer, you guys need to read letters and perhaps the Silmarillion as well. This is getting tedious as much of what you both argue is contrary to those sources; and much of what you question is clearly discussed in those texts.

First of all, I am not arguing at all, I simply asked for a passage about his form, because I don't remember reading it, when cassi showed those exampled I remember reading the Gollum thing where he talked of Sauron having 4 fingers. My whole thing here is that in the film the eye is there for the audience to see, to show the importance and that Sauron is ever watchful. I honestly like the interpretation for the movie-going perspective as it adds an element to the character and an evil part that the hobbits need to overcome. Like I said, I am in no way arguing with you, I just thought that both points should be stated, as each had open ends to them. I totally understand where you are coming from and what you are saying, however IMHO, I prefer the eye on the towers as it just adds extra elements for me and was something I never thought of until I saw it....

[Noahamir]

When I saw the movie, I thought that Peter was just showing the eye metaphysically to the audience, not as an actual embodiment of Sauron.

The first time you see the Eye atop the tower is when Frodo gasps in agony and grabs the ring at his chest as he looks toward Mordor. The camera quickly zooms in toward Mordor and scales up the tower to the Eye at the top as if you are looking through Frodo's eyes in terror.

I clearly thought Peter meant this to be some special enhanced wraith-world vision of Frodo's as he held the ring.

I think that Peter will show Sauron as something different than an eye in ROTK when Sauron talks to Pippin through the Palantir. I think this would be the best time and most true to the book.

[straight_face]

I wouldn't count on actually seeing the Palatir- they'll probably cut it out of the movie completely.

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

Has anyone ever thought it odd that when Sauron's ring was cut off, everything about him was vaporized...except his helm. This was an awesome effect, seeing it smash to the ground, just a little illogical. Maybe they should have had his mace hit the ground too. Or maybe all of his armor come crashing down.

I still have to say that overall, they did a great job in realizing the terror of his presence.

Regarding the whole eye thing, I am re-reading the books right now, and Tolkien does refer to Sauron almost exclusively as "the eye" or something to that effect. I can see where Jackson was in a predicament as to how to show him. I don't think he had any choice but to take the course that he took.

Maybe Tolkien was himself at odds about how Sauron appeared. I have read most of his letters, and his style was to write first, and then analyze the reasoning later, such as the reincarnation of Glorfindel. He did not decide that he had reincarnated until it was brought to his attention that he had produced a duplicate name. I could be that Tolkien had conflicting ideas himself about the whole thing.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Balrog_of_Morgoth
Regarding the whole eye thing, I am re-reading the books right now, and Tolkien does refer to Sauron almost exclusively as "the eye" or something to that effect. I can see where Jackson was in a predicament as to how to show him. I don't think he had any choice but to take the course that he took.

Well I think it works just fine the way it is. I mean Sauron isnt yet strong enough to take physical form and I really dont want to see some human shaped guy pacing around in his tower contemplating his moves like a two bit general or something. An image like that would immediatly limit how powerful I can see him. I mean do you really want him to look like darth vader? no thanks. i didnt even like it when they had him laughing at pippen when he looks into the palantir. he should be beyond such petty displays. he should be an omniscient unwavering super being of tremendous intelligence and unmeasurable evil. The point is he is SEEING all over middle earth he is SEEING inside the minds of different people. He is trying to FIND his ring trying to FIND weaknesses trying to SEE everything he can SEE. And hes big and bad and evil and what better way to wrap all this up into one package then by making him this ominious unblinking eye of fire. hellish and evil and nightmarish and perfectly symbolic.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Balrog_of_Morgoth
Regarding the whole eye thing, I am re-reading the books right now, and Tolkien does refer to Sauron almost exclusively as "the eye" or something to that effect. I can see where Jackson was in a predicament as to how to show him. I don't think he had any choice but to take the course that he took.

Maybe Tolkien was himself at odds about how Sauron appeared. I have read most of his letters, and his style was to write first, and then analyze the reasoning later, such as the reincarnation of Glorfindel. He did not decide that he had reincarnated until it was brought to his attention that he had produced a duplicate name. I could be that Tolkien had conflicting ideas himself about the whole thing.

Very good points, I agree with you on this...

[Lizra]

I'll try again.......Sauron's appearance mentioned here.

www.tolkienonline.com/movies/changes_rotk.cfm

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Lizra
I'll try again.......Sauron's appearance mentioned here.

www.tolkienonline.com/movie/changes-rotk.cfm

Link doesn't work....

[Lizra]

sorry! Try it now.