Ranking of Mair?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by sauron100
Sister Golden Hair, in your humble opinion, do you think Ungoliant is/was all powerful in that instant where she rose to Morgoth, as it took a large number of balrogs, to free Morgoth from that web?

All powerful is a strong term, but I do believe in that instance, she certianly in her greed and anger was more than capable of causing Morgoth great harm if not death to his physical form, had the Balrogs not come to the rescue. She was angry with him, so her power at that time was probably very great.

You know what they say: "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

[Andúril]

Wayfarer:
*snip*

P.S. You know Anduril, I have a little brother like that too. ]: )

Lol!

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Dunadan:
Tulkas gubbed Morgoth in a square go because that was his nature. Maybe if Morgoth had asked him what he'd got in his pocketses, however, the outcome would've been different.

ROTFL!!!

Wayfarer:
Sauron was the greatest in Aule's lore....

Saruman was also a maiar of aule.....

Gandalf, however, was considered to be the wisest of the maiar. It was his understanding of elves and humans which eventually allowed him to arrange the downfall of both sauron and saruman.

Ah, and Olórin was often in the company of that overlooked Vala, Nienna, and from her learned pity and patience. In later days, it is said, "he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness."

The imaginations of darkness. Perhaps Gandalf was indeed the greater. Sauron spent all his time darkening everyone's minds, bodies and lives for his own benefit and so diminished himself; Gandalf, if not clearly as the Grey, then certainly as the White, saw through it all as a mental problem. He could laugh. In his book Something Wicked This Way Comes, Ray Bradbury has his child-hero knock off the bad guy by shooting him with a wax bullet into which a smile has been carved. JRRT was certainly on another wavelength, but perhaps there is this similarity in thought between them as to what is Evil's ultimate weakness.

Andúril:
This quote indicates that Sauron merely "remained mighty" in the lore of Aule. It does not say that Sauron was the most powerful Maia "in terms of handiness and tools, command and control". I assume you intended to use this passage to support your assertion. Am I correct?

Not entirely. It was less of an assertion and more of an interesting section worth sharing. Also, I had looked quickly through The Silmarillion and those points I'd found that did seem to be examples of Sauron's power (Morgoth's putting him in charge of Hell at least twice, and leaving him in command of the War with the Noldor at a critical junction -- the Noldor had just arrived and were divided and weak, and the Sun had just risen for the very first time -- while he himself went to Hildórien to corrupt the newly awakened Men) were really secondary to that essential description.

[sauron100]

I wish there were definite answers to these questions, and given speculation plays a pivitol role, makes it all the more harder to come to conclusions.Damn, if only i could speak with Tolkien.....

[sauron100]

Sauron forging the ring surely would have weakened his physical state, as his improved power was used primarily in controlling of others,and the rings.Is it possible, had he not made the one ring, that overall he would be mightier in physical power(strength),and being less susceptible to sustaining injuries or death, as the ring contained a serious amount of his essence, kind of a death trap of sorts?

[sauron100]

You DON'T know the POWER of the dark side........i MUST obey Frodo!

[elendili]

Sauron 100 you do have a v.good split personality thing goin there

ROTFL huh do you make up these things to confuse people i dont understand words at the best of time

i think all the maiar were poerful only in certain times so it would be very hard to rank them e.g. radagast was good at talking to creatures like birds but balrogs weren't

this maybe goin off topic if the maiar who went to melkor to become his servants were all different how come they all became the same species of balrog?

[Arien the Maia]

Weren't balrogs originally fire Maiar? I mean they would be in the same class as Arien wouldn't they? ( only that they were seduced by Melkor and she wasn't?) So are fire Maiar more dangerous than other kinds of Maiar?

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by elendili
this maybe goin off topic if the maiar who went to melkor to become his servants were all different how come they all became the same species of balrog?

I've often wondered that. Presumably each retained some individual essence, since each of the Ainur were unique. However, since Sauron (not to mention Saruman, Gandalf, etc) was able to change his form, there's no reason in principle why the balrogs wouldn't also be able to do so. Being cooped up with Melkor in Angband during all those years of Darkness in ME, maybe they altered their forms to better serve his purposes. Being delved deeply within the earth, and concerned with destruction, fire would seem an appropriate theme. Maybe the word "balrog" was just the one that elves used to denote those evil Maia who chose fire-and-shadow forms.

There is a reference to the "frosts of Melkor" in the north of Beleriand. I wonder if there were balrog equivalents with other elemental themes?

cheers

d

PS - ROTFL means Roll on the floor laughing. (I had to look it up on the net). Maybe there should be a shorthand glossary on the site somewhere.
LOL = laughout loud
IM(H)O = In my (humble) opinion
RTFM = Read the ******** manual
IIRC = If I recall correctly

Maybe the moderators could have:
DAFSB = Do a ******* search, bozo

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Weren't balrogs originally fire Maiar? I mean they would be in the same class as Arien wouldn't they? ( only that they were seduced by Melkor and she wasn't?) So are fire Maiar more dangerous than other kinds of Maiar?

Thanks! Had never thought of Arien in connection with Balrogs before, but yes they would seem to be of the same class as you say. Certainly Gandalf was:

I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor.

But there's flames and then there's flames, as Sam might have said if the question had been brought up at The Green Dragon In the same section, Gandalf calls his fellow Maia "flame of Udûn."

I know that Udûn is a controversial topic and its meaning unclear, but wonder if there is an inherent difference in the type of fire these Maiar served or contained within themselves.

As for relative danger compared to other types of Maiar, I don't know. Gandalf did tell Gimli, during their meeting in Fangorn, that he, Gandalf, was more dangerous than anyone Gimli would meet unless he was brought alive into Sauron's presence; and certainly nobody in their right mind would want to meet Arien up close and personal. But I would be very careful around any Maia, even Melian: they all seem way too powerful for casual human contact.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
Thanks! Had never thought of Arien in connection with Balrogs before, but yes they would seem to be of the same class as you say. Certainly Gandalf was:But there's flames and then there's flames, as Sam might have said if the question had been brought up at The Green Dragon In the same section, Gandalf calls his fellow Maia "flame of Udûn."

I know that Udûn is a controversial topic and its meaning unclear, but wonder if there is an inherent difference in the type of fire these Maiar served or contained within themselves.

As for relative danger compared to other types of Maiar, I don't know. Gandalf did tell Gimli, during their meeting in Fangorn, that he, Gandalf, was more dangerous than anyone Gimli would meet unless he was brought alive into Sauron's presence; and certainly nobody in their right mind would want to meet Arien up close and personal. But I would be very careful around any Maia, even Melian: they all seem way too powerful for casual human contact.

That is true about the Maiar being way too powerful for mere mortals. Even the Eldar couldn't look at Arien because she was so bright. I have always wondered if a maiar could have married a mortal or not.

[Wayfarer]

Melian (a maia) married Thingol (an elf)
Her daughter luthien married beren (a man).

So you have only one degree of seperation between maia and man.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

One heckuva big degree, though.

Did Melian ever say anything "on the record" to Beren? This is not brought up as a point for proof of anything, just curiosity now that I think about it. During Beren's initial meeting with Thingol, of course, she was silent while Beren was there, as it was definitely a King and "father" moment, but afterward I seem to remember her just speaking to Luthien or to Thingol about the whole Luthien/Beren meeting...??

[Arien the Maia]

I have a question that is relative to Maiar in a way.....what would happen if a Maiar and a mortal (i.e. race of Men) were to marry and have a child? What would the fate of the child be and would it change the fate of both the Maia and mortal? This is just mere speculation...I've always wondered about it.

[Radagast The Brown]

I can guess that the son (of daughter) of them will have to choose, to be a maia or a man. I'm not really sure.