Smoking

[Sister Golden Hair]

Do you even want to stop underage smoking?

My dear Ben, why would you even ask me such a ridiculous question?

I care very much about underage smoking. I have a son you know. He happens to have two smoking parents, and hates smoking as much as you. Right now, NO ONE! smokes in my house including me. Anyone that wants to smoke goes outside, rain or shine, summer or winter, day or night. I do not disagree with some of your points, but eliminating smoking completely from society instead of the government finding a better way to regulate smoking, its effect, and its costs is not the answer. Some smokers that started in childhood are as much a victim to this problem as non-smokers. Much of this blame lies with the government, some with the industry which is government regulated, but none lies with the consumer, only if the smoker is an inconsiderate one.

As for kids smoking, well, I know some that have non-smoking parents that smoke. I have seen too how they will congrogate outside the neighborhood convenient store waiting for someone over eighteen to go in and buy cigarettes for them. They pull the same stunts with alcohol with a lesser degree of success cause the age limit is higher, so I can't say that young people are helping your cause especially when laws are in place to protect them and let's face it, they get kids that are eighteen to do the dirty work for them. The law says you are an adult at eighteen. Well, not in my book. Not in mind anyway. Not a whole lot of difference between 16 and 18. I think the responsibility has to lie with several people. Parents, teachers, the government, the industry, retailers, smokers, non-smokers, and teens. When everyone can work together on a problem that effects everyone, not just non-smokers, then maybe the problem could be solved to everyones satisfaction. Who cares where the blame lies. We need to stop all the finger pointing and find a solution.

[gdl96]

I don't have much intelligent to add to this conversation. I don't really like smoking, and I think JD had a good idea with non-smokers suing smokers for second hand smoke.

Although when I'm around 70 or 80 years old, I intend to start pipe smoking.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Once my old biology teacher suggested if we want to smoke and drink and use all sorts of drugs, wait until we're 70 or 80

[azalea]

Okay, since I know Blackheart has a sense of humor, I will risk his wrath to make this really bad joke:

Maybe he should change his name to BlackLUNG! Bah ha ha...

I am on the anti smoking side. Forget the cancer from second hand smoke ( ), I hate smelling like smoke after I've gone out. It makes your clothes and hair reek of the foul stench.

There are ashtrays restaurants could use that suck in the smoke, but I don't know how well they work.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
There are ashtrays restaurants could use that suck in the smoke, but I don't know how well they work.

They only work while the cigarette is in the ashtray. They do nothing while the cigarette is at the smokers mouth or when they exhail.

[Diaxion]

Well I think that people who smoke indanger other peoples lives. So I think smoking should only be done in the privacy of homes. Because the people who smoke are only killing themselves. If they don't want to live it opens up room for people who want to.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
BH By the way - it's funny how he tries to justify not only his smoking - but even his drug use. Many times he'll compare his drug use to me drinking iced tea and point out that caffeine is a drug. His argument is that anyone who drinks soda or coffee is a drug user.

It' called addiction. Justification is one of the symptoms. Denial is another.

Your friend has a very difficult road in front of him. It's not at all easy to recover for heroin users. I know a bit about it.

However, you should refrain form refering to it as stupid. If your freind is addicted, then he's afflicted by a disease. If someone had schizophrenia, or cancer, or diabetes, would you say they were stupid?

The problem is many people use mood altering substances will little or no ill effect. Just like many people can eat a lot of high sucrose foods without developing diabetes. Unfortunately by the time you discover there's a problem, it's a bit late to avoid the consequences.

[Arathorn]

Most of you guys are lucky you live in an area where emission levels of vehicles are strictly controlled. Where I live, I'd most probably die because of that and not because of 2nd hand smoke. Lotsa big smoke-belching vehicles here.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Blackheart


It' called addiction. Justification is one of the symptoms. Denial is another.

Your friend has a very difficult road in front of him. It's not at all easy to recover for heroin users. I know a bit about it.

You don't have to tell me he has a very difficult road. I've been there for him from before he started even smoking to having him call me up and saying that he was sleeping on the streets of Seattle. I used to wire him money so he could buy food until he admitted that a lot of times it didn't go to food - it went to drugs. So now - although he hasn't been in this situation in a while - I call up pizza hut or something and get pizza delivered to him.

A couple of years ago he called me from Eugene Oregon - said if he didn't get out of there that he would be dead. I asked when he wanted to leave - he said now, tonight. I got him a flight that day from Portland Oregon to New Jersey. I also called a taxi company and paid his cab fare from Eugene to Porland (about a 3 hour drive).

However, you should refrain form refering to it as stupid. If your freind is addicted, then he's afflicted by a disease. If someone had schizophrenia, or cancer, or diabetes, would you say they were stupid?

The problem is many people use mood altering substances will little or no ill effect. Just like many people can eat a lot of high sucrose foods without developing diabetes. Unfortunately by the time you discover there's a problem, it's a bit late to avoid the consequences.

Getting involved with heroin was stupid. He's a very smart person but what he did was stupid. He had seen three friends that I know of die from it. To me that is stupid - for one thing it's a lot easier to avoid a drug than to stop taking it. He has a lot of problems. Believe me - I understand about addiction - and I don't think he's stupid for the addiction. I also know it's a disease. But when it comes to the heroin and crack - when he had seen how they destroy people's lives - when he already was doing cocaine - it was stupid for him to do them. Very FEW people, if anyone, can take heroin and it not become a problem.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Arathorn
Most of you guys are lucky you live in an area where emission levels of vehicles are strictly controlled. Where I live, I'd most probably die because of that and not because of 2nd hand smoke. Lotsa big smoke-belching vehicles here.

What about the huge "Asian Brown Cloud" - Beware the Brown Cloud: Blanket of Pollution Covers South Asia. In the article they mention biomass burnings - in addition to the cars and factories in Asia as causing the problem. In New Jersey it's illegal to even burn leaves - and that's been in affect since the 70's. We have mandatory motor vehicle inspections. North eastern states (including New Jersey) are in lawsuits against several midwestern states because of their polluting coal burning plants. I think the world should concentrate on Asia's brown cloud - instead of worrying whether the US signed the Kyoto treaty. Many of our cities (LA being the worst) had a brown cloud hanging over them. Through America's own actions we have cleaned this problem up.

A little bit off subject from smoking.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by bmilder
Well, you just said you knew the risks. More education is not going to help. Elementary and middle schools are already saturated with information about the health risks, but obviously it's not terribly effective.

Really? Just because I decided that the risks were acceptable doesn't mean that every individual is going to make the same decision. I think it's a bit too soon to judge the effectiveness. That's the problem, people want results, instead of a solution.
Legislation looks like a fast way to get results, unfortunately it has proven notoriously ineffective, and even harmful, in the past.

JD is right - the person next to me smoking one cigarette will have more effect on my health than the person drinking one drink. I have asthma, so it's even more detrimental to my health and breathing.

How often do you sit next to smokers? (and why )
If you're on the road however, you can't really spot someone who is impaired, unless they are obviously weaving. If you're sitting next to the person in a car and he's having a drink, then that's a bit different...

However I'm not speaking directly to the impact of of someone sitting next to you. It's not about you. I'm talking about the impact on society.

Question: Why do you need to be able to smoke in a restaurant? Even with designated non-smoking areas, the smoke can still waft over to them from the bars or smoking areas. It's not like a magic wall separates the sections. People should just smoke in their own homes where it just harms themselves.

Easy answer: Resturants and bars like the money that smoking patrons spend. Especially bars. If you beleive in market forces, then why not let the market decide. Refuse to patronize businesses that allow smoking. Many smokers don't go into businesses that don't allow smoking. I don't see a need for legislation when the market can sort it out, perhaps even developing niche businesse opportunities.

Also, I am not aware of any health benefits for smoking - the effects are purely negative. I did a quick search and found a study about alcohol use : http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh24-1/05-11.pdf

Obviously, there are negative consequences from heavy usage or consumption of anything, but smoking is among the worst offenders because it has no positive effects,

Actually there are studies that show some positive results for nicotine, however they won't be found in any health journals. You have to go look in the Psych journals. Smoking has been found to have mitigating effects for schizophrenia, bipolar and other mood disorders (such as depression) and - not suprisingly- plaon ol anxiety- or as many folks call it: stress.

This is a perfect example of what I refer to as demonization. Do the benefits outwiegh the risks? Probably not at the levels most smokers get. However, the same can be said of most drinkers, and the cardiovascular effects of ETOH.

and the very act of smoking harms anyone nearby directly

Oh no argument there. Which is why, if you notice, I have no problem with smoking in designated areas, and large public areas where people aren't packed into crowds and forced to associate with people they don't wish to be near.

If I were sleepy, I would also be at an increased risk for having a driving accident. There could be a million causes for that. And you don't deny that cigarette smoking harms people, so why insist it should be unlegislated? Just because other substances can harm people doesn't mean we should let Big Tobacco go scot-free. If just one bank robber from a large group is caught, we shouldn't hesitate to prosecute him even though he wasn't the only one.

Scott free? Forcing corporate interests to own up to what they lied about is one thing, but the discussion was about legislation of individuals. Not the practices of coorporations.

However since you brought it up, what about the alcohol industry? What about the airlines- who dump enough toxins into the upper atmosphere each year to kill all of us several times over. What about industry, like the coal industy- who quite frankly contributes far more to the rising incidence of asthma in this country that tobbaco manufacturers.

Are they going to get away "scott free"? Hopefully not, but what the hell does that red herring have to do with legislating the behaviors of {i}INDIVIDUALS[/i]?

We regulate pesticides - btw, aren't there some pesticides in cigarettes?

No- you're are thinkning of phenolbromides, produced by the burning of cocoa- an additive- and a bronchial expander. Or perhaps ammonia, which causes the nicotene to crystalize in a particular fashion when burned. Oh, there may be pesticides on the tobbacco. However, I doubt it's any more than is on the food you get from your average grocery store.

- in the name of public health. Would you prefer that farmers go back to being able to use whatever they want, including DDT? People can just avoid farms, right, and since DDT is so effective, why should we hinder business or freedom in the name of health?

That's a rather limited and short-sighted view. What makes you think it's all about business? Or have you missed the effects of prohibition on society over the past century? The turf wars, the shame, the lack of funding for proper treatement, the ignorance and the fear.
Public health? Yep. Making all those mafias and cartels rich enough to advance corruption into the government without any tax return for the pain certainly doesn't seem in the interest of public health to me.

In other words, it not nearly as simplistic as you present it. Farmers can easily use other forms of pesticide and get siilar results. However regulating individuals and their personal choices is a recipie for disaster.

When someone commits suicide, that's fine by me. When someone commits homicide, that's different.

Oh? Well since I spent nine years of my life as a therapist treating victims and sufferers of substance abuse, I'm not particularly OK with suicide, except as a last resort (in which case it's euthenasia actually). Homicide either, however one usually goes with the other.

I don't particularly think however that it's accurate to portray smoking as suicide, or second hand smoke as homicide. Harmful yes, but it's a form of extremism that does little to promote rational discourse. Of course, that assumes you want rational discourse.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Freedom of choice is one thing, however, there are some pretty scary stats out there for lung cancer developed from passive smoking --- especially for those poor SOBs working in the restaurants and bars, where they have no control in terms of moving away from the smoking areas.

Is it time to sue the sulpher coal producing companies (who are being subsidized by the government actually) for ruining my lungs?

It's a lot easier after all, to change my eating habits. or my place of employment, than it is to change where I live...

Why are the tobbacco companies being sued and not the coal companies? Easy. Politics. Who's in favor, who's not.

Rationality has nothing to do with it.

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by jerseydevil


What about the huge "Asian Brown Cloud" - Beware the Brown Cloud: Blanket of Pollution Covers South Asia. In the article they mention biomass burnings - in addition to the cars and factories in Asia as causing the problem. In New Jersey it's illegal to even burn leaves - and that's been in affect since the 70's. We have mandatory motor vehicle inspections. North eastern states (including New Jersey) are in lawsuits against several midwestern states because of their polluting coal burning plants. I think the world should concentrate on Asia's brown cloud - instead of worrying whether the US signed the Kyoto treaty. Many of our cities (LA being the worst) had a brown cloud hanging over them. Through America's own actions we have cleaned this problem up.

A little bit off subject from smoking.

Yes it's slightly off-topic but with regards to laws, enacting laws is one thing. Having the political will by the government to strictly enforce them is another. We already have a clean air act. Tire burning and gun-firing during new year's eve is now a jailable offense but it's pretty difficult to get support where citizens actually turn people in.

Poverty and overpopulation contribute a huge part in this. There's simply a lot more "urgent" problems for the average person in asia to get worried about than dying 10 to 30 yrs younger than he/she should. It's an explanation but, I admit, not an excuse.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by azalea
Okay, since I know Blackheart has a sense of humor, I will risk his wrath to make this really bad joke:

Maybe he should change his name to BlackLUNG! Bah ha ha...

I am on the anti smoking side. Forget the cancer from second hand smoke ( ), I hate smelling like smoke after I've gone out. It makes your clothes and hair reek of the foul stench.

There are ashtrays restaurants could use that suck in the smoke, but I don't know how well they work.

Actually, That's a coalminer's disease. You know- those poor [EDITED] who were worked into the ground, screwed over, and kicked aside so you could have cheap electricity to run your computer?

Not to mention you get to breath the sulpher and soot...

But it's much more satisfying to go after a "visible" problem instead of acting on something more difficult and less visable (and convienient) that might actually have some positive, achievable results...

Last Edited by Sister Golden Hair

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You don't have to tell me he has a very difficult road. I've been there for him from before he started even smoking to having him call me up and saying that he was sleeping on the streets of Seattle. I used to wire him money so he could buy food until he admitted that a lot of times it didn't go to food - it went to drugs. So now - although he hasn't been in this situation in a while - I call up pizza hut or something and get pizza delivered to him.

A couple of years ago he called me from Eugene Oregon - said if he didn't get out of there that he would be dead. I asked when he wanted to leave - he said now, tonight. I got him a flight that day from Portland Oregon to New Jersey. I also called a taxi company and paid his cab fare from Eugene to Porland (about a 3 hour drive).

I suppose that you don't need any lectures on enabling at this point. It sucks, but the worst part is it's hard to know if you are helping or hurting.

Getting involved with heroin was stupid. He's a very smart person but what he did was stupid. He had seen three friends that I know of die from it. To me that is stupid - for one thing it's a lot easier to avoid a drug than to stop taking it. He has a lot of problems. Believe me - I understand about addiction - and I don't think he's stupid for the addiction. I also know it's a disease. But when it comes to the heroin and crack - when he had seen how they destroy people's lives - when he already was doing cocaine - it was stupid for him to do them. Very FEW people, if anyone, can take heroin and it not become a problem.

One doesn't suddenly take heroin on a whim JD. Your freind was already addicted long before he touched it. Which means his rational thought process was impaired. He didn't have a choice really. I don't see that as stupid, merely tragic.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Blackheart
How often do you sit next to smokers? (and why )
If you're on the road however, you can't really spot someone who is impaired, unless they are obviously weaving. If you're sitting next to the person in a car and he's having a drink, then that's a bit different...

I didn't read your whole thing yet - but I wanted to respond to these to things. I have friends that smoke. If they go outside and I follow them to continue talking - that is my problem. I just make sure I don't stand where the wind goes. It's my responsibility to avoid the smoke then. But when I'm at a restaurant and there are 3 rows of tables seperating me from the smoking section - smoke still moves to the non smoking section - especially if it's cigar smoke.

Easy answer: Resturants and bars like the money that smoking patrons spend. Especially bars. If you beleive in market forces, then why not let the market decide. Refuse to patronize businesses that allow smoking. Many smokers don't go into businesses that don't allow smoking. I don't see a need for legislation when the market can sort it out, perhaps even developing niche businesse opportunities.

I don't have a problem with bars keeping smoking. but to say that you can just let the market dictate without any legistlation is ridiculous. If that was the case non-smokers would have no where other their own homes to be safe from it. It required legistlation to make airlines non smoking (by the way - there is a all smoking airline, at least there was a few years ago), malls would be all smoking, places of work would be all smoking, restaurants now. I actually don't have a problem with the amount of restrictions as it stands now - except when it comes to people smoking right outside doorways. Wehn I exit a mall and I HAVE to go through the smoke - I have no choice.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Blackheart


I suppose that you don't need any lectures on enabling at this point. It sucks, but the worst part is it's hard to know if you are helping or hurting.

No you don't have to tell me - but let me know if you would let a friend die or what ever. I was there for him - many people are just fair weather friends. I knew that he could have been using the money to buy drugs and that I was trying to trust him when he said it was going to food. There is nothing wrong with buying him food directly instead of giving him money. He's been clean for about 4 months now - from alcohol and drugs. There is a fine line between helping and enabling. But a choice has to be made and when i found out that gthe money was going to drugs sometimes - I changed the way I helped him.

Bringing him out here was not enabling him though - it was saving his life. I'd do that in a heart beat no questions asked if he needed me to.

One doesn't suddenly take heroin on a whim JD. Your freind was already addicted long before he touched it. Which means his rational thought process was impaired. He didn't have a choice really. I don't see that as stupid, merely tragic.

Well everyone has their problems. You may view it as tragic - but knowing him and his attitude- it was stupid not tragic. He made his choices - now he has to live with them. As hard as it is - he finally has realised that his life isn't his father's fault or anyone elses. He may never have been able to live up to his father's expectations - but he's older now. He's finally realised - after I have told him a thousand - that only he can get himself clean - only he can make his life better.

The bottom line is that it's not like people don't know the consequences to smoking, doing drugs or alcohol. People can't whine about it after they have cancer, liver disease or brain damage and say "If I only knew". My friend has said that many times.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Blackheart


Is it time to sue the sulpher coal producing companies (who are being subsidized by the government actually) for ruining my lungs?

It's a lot easier after all, to change my eating habits. or my place of employment, than it is to change where I live...

Well, that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

Yes, YOU have a choice of employment. Some people don't. In fact, a lot of people who work the bars and stuff - over here anyway, are people without qualifications. Sure, they don't HAVE to work in a bar; they could work somewhere else. However, unqualified people have less choice. And the job market is distinctly unfriendly to young unqualified people.

[Laurelyn]

Gods, if poeple that smoke would please stay away from me with that cigarette . . .
It wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't make me feel so damned sick. I can't tolerate secondhand smoke- I get sick to my stomach, I cough, I can't breathe, and I get headaches, feel dizzy and see spots. In Athens, Greece, we drove through part of the city in a taxi. It smelled so strongly of cigarette smoke, I was struggling not to pass out for the whole ride. Those stupid spots I see have a habit of getting more frequent, and denser, and darker in color, until I lose my vision and have it replaced by a wave of black . . . and another . . .
If you wish to have me stay conscious . . .don't smoke near me, thanx.

'nuff said, I think. If people want to kill themselves smoking, great. That's their problem.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Sounds like a migraine.