Invisibility

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Christiana
Tom's Elvish name was Iarwain Ben-adar, occuring to Elrond.
And in Apendix B it states clearly that Gandalf died and returned 2 life.

Quite right on both counts. It's interesting that in the text he only experiences it as being taken away and returned. Also, if he is brought back to life, why use the wasted body and spend the time to heal in Lothlorien? It seems an afterthought to put in the appendix that he died. (I must admit I read it the first time I read the book, but not in subsequent readings). I wonder if the ambiguity in the text was Tolkien trying to avoid the allegorical form (as some have written than he abhorred), but the death fit his faith's concept of sacrifice as opposed to the eastern concept of a re-incarnation. Either way it seems he was coscious during the whole period.

Who is Tom. B? I'm still looking. Any ideas?

Why was gandalf so eager to see Tom after the RotK? What business was more urgent that the "shadow in the shire"?

[Menelvagor]

There are two realms... the Seen and the Unseen. You can think of them as physical and spiritual. The ring did push it's bearer into the unseen world, and could be used to gain power over it. The domination of other wills (spirits), etc.

I think that it's likely that the shift into the unseen world would have made a mortal invisible. It is also possible that a strong willed person could have learned to make themself visible while wearing the ring-remember, maia were 'by default' invisible spirits, they had to exert themselves to form a physical body. So they were simply increased in power by the ring, the physical construct would have likely still worked.

We seem to have several differing definitions (hey, alliteration) of the wraith world. I always took it to be something like being dead, but not going to Mandos. There could be only two possible causes to that effect, one would be that it might the ultimate fate of men, the other that (as is shown with the ringwraiths and the dead men of Dunharrow) a superior will or power holds people to remain. The Nazgul pretty much dominate it at the time of the War of the Ring, and it seems like a fairly evil place, (see Eowyn, Faramir, and Merry's recollections of the black breath) the archetype it fits is that of restless souls with 'unfinished buisness.' Your definition appears to be (correct me if I'm wrong) the invisible world of the ainur. Is there a textual basis for either of these? (I'm not being facitious, I really don't know) Did Tolkien ever say anything about it?

[Tar-Elendil]

And in Apendix B it states clearly that Gandalf died and returned 2 life

his body perished..his spirit fled his body..he didnt exactly "die"..like what happened with saurons body at numenore.

[Mirahzi]

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil

his body perished..his spirit fled his body..he didnt exactly "die"..like what happened with saurons body at numenore.

Isn't that the basic idea of 'dying?' The said person/wizard/whatever would be killed, leaving his/her/its body behind and the spirit would go elsewhere.

[BeardofPants]

Isn't that the basic idea of 'dying?' The said person/wizard/whatever would be killed, leaving his/her/its body behind and the spirit would go elsewhere.

For someone like us, yeah. But Gandalf was a Maia, and chose to masquerade in the form of flesh and blood.

[Tar-Elendil]

Who is Tom. B? I'm still looking. Any ideas?

some wacko maiar thats the only thing I can think of..or the remnent of some forgotten people..

[Mirahzi]

Cirdan, I doubt you'll find anything definite, but the Maiar theory is the generally accepted one.. though it has its flaws.

EDIT: See the Encyclopedia of Arda if you need more information... http://www.glyphweb.com/arda

(hope that's not advertising)

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


For someone like us, yeah. But Gandalf was a Maia, and chose to masquerade in the form of flesh and blood.

Oh, like that guy in "Silence of the Lambs".

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Mirahzi
Cirdan, I doubt you'll find anything definite, but the Maiar theory is the generally accepted one.. though it has its flaws.

EDIT: See the Encyclopedia of Arda if you need more information... http://www.glyphweb.com/arda

(hope that's not advertising)

It's only advertising if it isn't a good link. This is not advertising!

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Menelvagor
We seem to have several differing definitions (hey, alliteration) of the wraith world. I always took it to be something like being dead, but not going to Mandos. There could be only two possible causes to that effect, one would be that it might the ultimate fate of men, the other that (as is shown with the ringwraiths and the dead men of Dunharrow) a superior will or power holds people to remain. The Nazgul pretty much dominate it at the time of the War of the Ring, and it seems like a fairly evil place, (see Eowyn, Faramir, and Merry's recollections of the black breath) the archetype it fits is that of restless souls with 'unfinished buisness.' Your definition appears to be (correct me if I'm wrong) the invisible world of the ainur. Is there a textual basis for either of these? (I'm not being facitious, I really don't know) Did Tolkien ever say anything about it?

Yes.

At the fords, frodo is slipping into the wraith world, and can see the nazgful clearly-but he also sees glorfindel 'a figure clothed in light'. So It's safe to assume that the unseen realm, in itself, is not evil.

The spirit-fea-of men and elves in normally anchored or 'housed' in the body-hroa, matter. Upon death it is unhoused, and free to move on it's own. However, it no longer can interact with the physical world. Also, upon death an elven spirit is summoned to mandos, and to refuse that summons is an evil thing. Human spirits are summoned somewhere, but to refuse is likewise evil (although I'm not sure if most m,en had the power to resist).

So it's safe to assume that any bodiless spirit is tainted-either deranged and having refused the summons, or under the thrall of some evil power. In that sense, the wraith world can be considered a rather evil place.

However, the more spiritually powerful beings in arda (gandalf, glorfindel, etc) also have a strong presence in the unseen realm, and thus can act in it.

[Menelvagor]

Ok, sounds good to me.

[Tar-Elendil]

lol, yea..good job wayfarer:P

[Wayfarer]

Bows not-quite humbly.

[azalea]

Gandalf was very much attached to his body; I think Maia that took bodily form were. He got pleasure from smoking, he used his body language to convey his mood, he certainly didn't have the power to travel any differently than other worldly beings (Shadowfax notwithstanding). When he came back I think he was "refreshed" in the sense that he had been loosed from the physical body he had so long used, and when he came back he was as a result more connected to the other world ("Oh, yes, Gandalf, that's what I was called," etc.). That's what I meant by otherworldly, meaning more connected to that other place. he seems somewhat different. So it was just a thought, that losing the body then returning allows one to remain visible when wearing the ring...*ramble, ramble*....
As far as Tom, read this essay (I assume it's not advertising since I am using it to illustrate a point?):
http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html
This is the only essay I've read concerning his identity, but I think the guy makes a good case for his theory. The only thing that throws a wrench in it for me is calling Goldberry the Riverwoman's Daughter and saying he found her sitting by the river and all that. That doesn't quite mesh with it.

[Christiana]

Nice link

[Cirdan]

The link was good. His research was better than the theory, though. Tolkien would have explained Tom B. on The Sil. if he had intended him to be understood. IMO it was a bit of capricious bit of sentimentality on JRRT's part to include a character based on his child's toy. I think he loved how the character represented what he wanted to say at that point in the story, and that he didn't want to recreate him. He may have thought it pretentious to include to in the grand scheme of the Silmarillion since he existed in a previous story.

[Aragorn_iz_cool]

No, the ring did not make souron invisible.