anti-immigration

[Nurvingiel]

Though I also think immigration is great, and diversity is important, I have a few quibbles with your post. We agree on a lot of things, but not everything - naturally.

Quibble 1. No borders? Isn't that a bit impractical? Besides, people will always find a way to make the world smaller. Taking away a countries sovereignity will not foster more tolerant attitudes in my opinion.

Quibble 2. Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to say that tories should be banned? I always you were a tolerant and non-prejudiced person Chrys.
(I'm sure you were referring to a UK political party, but it's worth noting for future reference that there are many political parties in different countries called "tories", and they don't all share the same platform.)


I also believe in attempting to fairly distributs the world's wealth, which is another reason I'm for immigration.

I don't really understand the whole Theo van Gogh thing (even though I know more or less what happened), but I have to add that that was a high quality post JD.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

1. i believe we seem to be making a bit of a move in the reduction of borders direction alread, re: EU, UN etc

2. Tories as in British Conservative Party (but for that matter anyone to the right of them aswell)

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i have one view, and one view only, immigration is good, diversity of population is good, there should be no boundaries between different nations, and we should all strive to work together for the betterment of the human race, for the benefit of all peoples of all nations. racists, bigots and tories should be banned.

Well there's the problem - you yourself are bigotted - since you said that "tories shold be banned" and who defines who is racist and bigotted. As for national boundaries - I completely disagree. See what you want is for the world to be as you wish it to be - if the majority didn't want your world - you would be very unhappy then and you would wish for the boundaries to be back up - your statement about tories is evedent of that.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I don't really understand the whole Theo van Gogh thing (even though I know more or less what happened), but I have to add that that was a high quality post JD.

Why thank you. I felt it needed to be pointed out that the situation in the netherlands wasn't just a matter of a few "right-wing nut jobs" but was a situation which involved a large segment of the population.

Although nurv - I'm for limited immigration. You can't take everyone in. It would destroy your economy. I'm also not for the redistribution of wealth - but that would be no surprise to you I think.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Couldn't remember if it was the Netherlands or belgium. I knew it was one of the small EU states though. Half the times people in the EU can't remember or don't care what American state something happens in - you'll get used to it though or you'll have to learn to accept it as the EU develops into a country, like many people tell Americans that the states don't matter and to just accept their narrow view of the US.

Sorry for jumping in with only a collateral comment, but I just wanted to point that that is probably due to the fact that Alabama, Nebraska or Wyoming don't use to play in the Olimpic Games, the Football (soccer) World Cup or the Basketball World Cup, to put only some examples.

If I can difference between Belgium and the Netherlands and I don't tend to mix them as I may do with US states it's partly because the Netherlands have had one of the best playing soccer teams since the 70s while all I can say about Belgium's team is that they made very well some decades ago playing the off-side tactic and that they kicked us off in the Mexico World Cup

It may sound weird, but I think that that sort of little things help to build a national identity and to make it recognizable for foreign people.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Fat middle

Sorry for jumping in with only a collateral comment, but I just wanted to point that that is probably due to the fact that Alabama, Nebraska or Wyoming don't use to play in the Olimpic Games, the Football (soccer) World Cup or the Basketball World Cup, to put only some examples.

If I can difference between Belgium and the Netherlands and I don't tend to mix them as I may do with US states it's partly because the Netherlands have had one of the best playing soccer teams since the 70s while all I can say about Belgium's team is that they made very well some decades ago playing the off-side tactic and that they kicked us off in the Mexico World Cup

It may sound weird, but I think that that sort of little things help to build a national identity and to make it recognizable for foreign people.

We don't really pay attention to international sports - so doesn't really matter to americans really. We have national sports which people are more into here - because people are more into the states than the US. That is why the rivalry between Pittsburgh and Cleveland and the rivalry between the Red Sox and Yankees are much more important than anything at the international level for Americans. You look at at us through these narrow glasses. I never even heard of the Basketball World Cup.

Personally I think that the EU states should lose their UN status, and olympic teams. As I have said before - you want your cake and eat it too. As for why you can't differenciate between the US states - it's mostly because you think they don't matter and are unimportant. But that is pretty much from lack of understanding of the states. NJ had gone to Israel the last month to discuss trade and this month they went to Belgium to talk to promote trade between NJ and Belgium.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

over exemplified nationalism only leads to racism

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

over exemplified nationalism only leads to racism

Europens define nationalism differently than Americans. You have a serious racism problem because you aren't a land of immigrants. America is a land of immigrants and regardless of where people come from - or where they are born, they are considered and treated as Americans once they take their oath of citizenship. So it's not so much nationalism - as it is how you view your land. We in general have no problem with immigration, however we can't let everyone in either. How many immigrant festivals do you celebrate - I mean where people think of it as a national holiday almost - not just some street festival that acknowledges the few immigrants. America basically now celebrates Cinqo de Mayo - it's even a larger celebration here than it is in Mexico. We also celebrate St Patricks day - which was brought over by the Irish in the Ellis Island days and is a huge national celebration in the US - even for those who are not Irish. We embrace outside cultures and make them a part of our own, whereas it seems like Europe wishes to stay "pure" from outside influences.

[Spock]

God save us from monsters, the UN and the EU.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

NJ had gone to Israel the last month to discuss trade and this month they went to Belgium to talk to promote trade between NJ and Belgium.

I can understand that. It is like when the President of Andalucia goes to a country leading a troupe of andalusian politics and businessmen to sign trading treaties, doesn't it?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Fat middle

I can understand that. It is like when the President of Andalucia goes to a country leading a troupe of andalusian politics and businessmen to sign trading treaties, doesn't it?

Not really - this is completely seperate from the US government. It was NJ politicians meeting with Belgium politicians to disucss trade between NJ and Belgium. This was before Bush's visit to the EU.

Actually - I guess it might be similar. I'm not sure how much power the President of Andalucia has really. At first I thought you were saying he would go over in association with the Spanish government.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

or the first minister of scotland, or wales, or the first minister of the stormont assembly doing the same

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

or the first minister of scotland, or wales, or the first minister of the stormont assembly doing the same

I wasn't aware of them ever meeting with the US President or anything like that though. One of the things that McGreevey got in trouble for by the citizens of New Jersey was going over to Ireland for trade talks and tacking on the cost of his damn family ruinion too. He ended up having to pay his expenses during his family reunion after a lot of outcry from New Jerseyans and the media.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I wasn't aware of them ever meeting with the US President or anything like that though.

if he even knows they exist, although the first ministers of the welsh and scottish assemblies have met with other national leaders

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

if he even knows they exist, although the first ministers of the welsh and scottish assemblies have met with other national leaders

Okay - so we're going to throw mud at each other's leaders - is that it? I mean - I can very well do that - but of course when I make statements back to arrogant statements such as yours - people bitch. I dont' see where the leaders of Scotland and Wales matter - considering that Europeans seem to think the governors of the states don't matter. I seriously doubt Blair knows all the governors of the states - so who cares if Bush doesn't know about he leaders of Scotland or Wales.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Well then by the response in the netherlands - all I can say is they have a pretty big right-wing element - since the number of people who were outraged by it was quite huge. There were demonstrations in the street, burning of mosques, etc.

There you go again. People demonstrating against an assault on freedom of speech are, according to you, the same people who set fire to mosques. You'd do your claims for the US as a haven of racial harmony slightly more credit by not conflating all Yoorpeens in such a way.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

So tell me - if the Netherlands has a democracy and they have a so called "right wing government" - isn't it the people who voted them in? I'm just curious as to who voted the politicians in.

I'm just curious as to what mushrooms you are on. You now seem to be taking a left-wing analysis of Dutch domestic politics to further a view that the Dutch are all right-wing racists.

If you'd read my previous post on this thread, you'd have noticed that I actually agree with you on two key things here.

Firstly, there is a lot of racism in Europe, and it is very much attached to the immigration issue. It is the elephant in the room that nobody wants to address because the anti-immigration groups have got them by the goolies.

Secondly, the US is indeed a illustration of how immigration is a positive, dynamic force.

But where we appear to differ is that you seem to think the US is better than everybody else, whereas I think we're all Jock Tamson's Bairns and that you have to see all of these things in their political-cultural context.

In the Dutch example you have to consider:
- the population density (ten times denser than the US, for example)
- IIRC the highest immigration rate in Europe
- the rise of populist anti-immigration parties
- the murder of two high profile anti-immigration figures
- pressure on the welfare state
- how that provoked a reaction amongst a large number of conservative (small c) voters and pushed the whole political discussion to the right.

An interesting perspective on how Europe can learn from the US experience here.

[Earniel]

Well then by the response in the netherlands - all I can say is they have a pretty big right-wing element - since the number of people who were outraged by it was quite huge. There were demonstrations in the street, burning of mosques, etc.

No, you're jumping to the wrong conclusion. The people who demonstrated were not necesarily part of a big right-wing element. Van Gogh was making a movie in which he was critical of the islam. The people demonstrated against his murder because they felt that it endangered their right to free opinion and freedom of speech. If the response is to kill and threaten everyone that has the least bit of criticism your religion, in a country like the Netherlands, I can understand why everyone would be outraged. Hell, if it where to happen in my country, I'd probably be demonstrating there too. The demonstrations were not against moslims in general but against the attitude that no one may have any criticism on the islam. And that doesn't require being right-wing.

Of course the Socialists will have criticism on the government about how they handled the situation. The Socialists are in the opposition, they'll jump on any opportunity to make the government look inadequate.

There was arsony in two or three Mosques, but they were isolated incidents and hardly reflecting the ideas of the entire Dutch population. Let's face it, there are stupid people everywhere in the world. There were also one or two churches fired in response. That wasn't going to help the situation any further either.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Why thank you. I felt it needed to be pointed out that the situation in the netherlands wasn't just a matter of a few "right-wing nut jobs" but was a situation which involved a large segment of the population.

There is a large difference between having certain ideas and acting on them. There are many anti-islam sentiments in the Netherlands (and in Belgium), that is true, I'll leave it in the middle whether they are justified. They are there for reasons which, I think, are unknown to people not living in this area in Europe. I don't expect people from outside to understand without having lived here. Frankly on the whole this case got blown to bigger proportions in the foreign media (IMO) than it really was. In the end it only takes one person to kill a man and it only takes one man to fire a mosque, not the entire populace. So I'd be careful with generalisations.

Originally Posted by Fat middle

If I can difference between Belgium and the Netherlands and I don't tend to mix them as I may do with US states it's partly because the Netherlands have had one of the best playing soccer teams since the 70s while all I can say about Belgium's team is that they made very well some decades ago playing the off-side tactic and that they kicked us off in the Mexico World Cup

Sheesh, thanks for rubbing that in. We suck, I know, but most small teams like us because we're the only team they can win against.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Personally I think that the EU states should lose their UN status, and olympic teams. As I have said before - you want your cake and eat it too. As for why you can't differenciate between the US states - it's mostly because you think they don't matter and are unimportant. But that is pretty much from lack of understanding of the states. NJ had gone to Israel the last month to discuss trade and this month they went to Belgium to talk to promote trade between NJ and Belgium.

I don't think you can blame European states for the fact that the USA comes out as one nation in certain sport events, while the European states prefer to come as separate nations. This is just the difference in approach between the USA and the EU. Frankly I don't see why we should come out as one European nation just because the USA does.

The reason why we may or may not differenciate between American states is NOT because we find them unimportant because you always come out as one whole nation. I suppose the media plays some part in it. The emphasis is laid on Bush, as president of the USA, less to none on the separate leaders of the states. For instance, I don't recall seeing the NJ governor visiting us on the news, while Bush was nearly every day the biggest news item. (But then I suppose half of Brussel wasn't closed off, security measures weren't set up weeks in advance and a part of normal life in the city wasn't detrailed for the coming of the NJ governor, which might very well explain the lesser attention paid to him.)

EDIT: The Gaffer, I quite agree.

[Spock]

..IMO, the E.U. is an oxymoron

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Of course the Socialists will have criticism on the government about how they handled the situation. The Socialists are in the opposition, they'll jump on any opportunity to make the government look inadequate.

Sor of sounds like how Europeans are with American and Americans - doesn't it?

There is a large difference between having certain ideas and acting on them. There are many anti-islam sentiments in the Netherlands (and in Belgium), that is true, I'll leave it in the middle whether they are justified. They are there for reasons which, I think, are unknown to people not living in this area in Europe. I don't expect people from outside to understand without having lived here. Frankly on the whole this case got blown to bigger proportions in the foreign media (IMO) than it really was. In the end it only takes one person to kill a man and it only takes one man to fire a mosque, not the entire populace. So I'd be careful with generalisations.

That mae be so - but now you see what my problem is with foreign media whent ehy report on things happening in America. It's a bitch when people who aren't living there tell you how your country is - isn't it?

I don't think you can blame European states for the fact that the USA comes out as one nation in certain sport events, while the European states prefer to come as separate nations. This is just the difference in approach between the USA and the EU. Frankly I don't see why we should come out as one European nation just because the USA does.

If Europe is going to act as one nation - it should be ONE nation. That is my beef. You wish to have your cake and eat it too. And of course - why would you want to give up your olympic teams if no one makes you - but I think it's rather rottenthat you pick and choose when you at as a united nation - versus acting as individula countries. Sometimes you even after US businesses on multiple fronts - as individual countries and under the EU nation. I do think you should give up yiour seats in the UN and gicve up your olympic team - ESPECIIALLY if the EU Constitution passes.

The reason why we may or may not differenciate between American states is NOT because we find them unimportant because you always come out as one whole nation. I suppose the media plays some part in it. The emphasis is laid on Bush, as president of the USA, less to none on the separate leaders of the states. For instance, I don't recall seeing the NJ governor visiting us on the news, while Bush was nearly every day the biggest news item. (But then I suppose half of Brussel wasn't closed off, security measures weren't set up weeks in advance and a part of normal life in the city wasn't detrailed for the coming of the NJ governor, which might very well explain the lesser attention paid to him.)

Well see - you guys don't report on things the way they are. That's why you don't see the states as being that important. That's why you have a erroroneous idea about the US and the role of the states. That is one of the reasons you have a very erroneous idea of the power of the US president too and don't understand at all the role of Congress. Yet Americans are constatly referred to as ignorant by Europeans because we don't always fully understand you - nor do I see why we should worry about your individual states anymore, when you are the EU.

I will soon comment on the rest of your post.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Sor of sounds like how Europeans are with American and Americans - doesn't it?

Oh, come on JD, it's not like America or Americans don't ever criticise Europe. I think we deserve each other on that field.

It's a bitch when people who aren't living there tell you how your country is - isn't it?

Yeah, it is. Although it'd be already nice if they didn't confuse your country with another while doing it.

I do think you should give up yiour seats in the UN and gicve up your olympic team - ESPECIIALLY if the EU Constitution passes.

It is may very well be possible that in the future it will be so. I don't see it happening yet while the EU is still growing. But for me it is no perogative, and obviously there isn't that much call for it either at the moment.

Well see - you guys don't report on things the way they are. That's why you don't see the states as being that important. That's why you have a erroroneous idea about the US and the role of the states. That is one of the reasons you have a very erroneous idea of the power of the US president too and don't understand at all the role of Congress. Yet Americans are constatly referred to as ignorant by Europeans because we don't always fully understand you - nor do I see why we should worry about your individual states anymore, when you are the EU.

You seem to know quite well how we see and think things. And that about a whole federation of countries, very impressive. But really, I wouldn't be generalising that much about so many people, JD. I don't assume to know how Americans see things, I have my ideas, yes, but they are not necesarily the truth. I'd appreciate the same from you.

But we're going off down a rabbit hole here, let's go back to the original topic.