12-28-2005, 11:53 AM | #41 | |
Quasi Evil
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Remember we still have first hand witnesses to this. Its not like we are talking about the Salem witch trials or something. We have people in their 80s and 90s with concentration camp tattoos on their arms and terrifying memories they still wrestle with to this day. We even have former nazis who have admitted to it. Lots of them. And if it was one vast huge conspiracy then where are all the millions of people lost? How did they die? How did they disappear? If its simply a conspiracy then you should be able to account for them. Did they all move to an invisible island somewhere? There are countless photographs of them. There are countless survivors who lost brothers or sisters or parents or children who can tell you about them down to the fine hair detail. How can we just explain that away?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 12-28-2005 at 11:56 AM. |
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12-28-2005, 12:15 PM | #42 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
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I'm all for conspiracy theories,but trying to argue against the existence of the Holocaust is just in poor taste. It is very insulting to Jews for obvious reasons. And all of humanity for that matter. Is that your intent?
All Holocaust denial is is a really hateful attack on Jews. That is all it is. It's disgusting that even for arguments sake you are trying to argue that it was "faked."
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12-28-2005, 12:30 PM | #43 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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insulting to humanity i'd say... the holocaust is about all of us
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12-28-2005, 01:06 PM | #44 | ||
Elven Warrior
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I think you are quite right though. The evidence is overwhelming. It either almost certainly happened or it was a hoax of gargantuan complexity, carried out with breathtaking competence. It's just that some people, including myself, don't think such a feat is beyond the capabilities of the cleverest humans. Quote:
Let me remind you, I don't believe in any of this, I'm just offering possible reasons why those who deny the holocaust do deny it. The thread 'is' about those who deny the holocaust, isn't it? A thread with nothing but post after post of people declaring holocaust deniers crazy or dellusional without offering possible reasons why they believe what they do. Is that what you want? If so then I'll conform. At least then I can avoid the accusatory censuring of those who get offended on other people's behalf. EDIT/UPDATE: I don't think questioning is ever wrong. It would be in poor taste if this were a jewish message board, but it isn't, is it (I might be wrong though?). If a subject is upsetting, then that is unfortunate, but the constant search for truth is too important. People should be allowed to question always. It's when you're not allowed to, that's when you should worry.
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Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. Last edited by Captain Stern : 12-28-2005 at 01:17 PM. |
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12-28-2005, 01:21 PM | #45 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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whether it be germans and muslims about the holocaust, or christians about the crusades or the KKK, many people have a hard time living with their past, so they justify it in part, or in whole, or even deny it... which leads to much too much concentration on the details, and much too little on the big picture
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-28-2005, 01:56 PM | #46 | ||
Elf Lord
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Posing the other side should help to increase understanding on this very important issue, for those of us who are interested in a greater understanding. Often, a greater understanding will only confirm the accepted position, and make the belief all the more firmly grounded. This is what it is doing in my case . There seems to be no evidence for the Holocaust being a sham, but there is much for it having really existed. One can always argue that on a stupendously ingenious level of an unbelievable scale and success, this fakery was pulled off, but what's the point in making that argument? If there isn't good reason to believe the Holocaust didn't happen and there is lots of reason for thinking it happened, then we generally (exception=Jesus was God ) accept the evidence. I very much hope that no one on this site will any more attack your character. I am very, very sorry that you have experienced attack on this thread.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-28-2005 at 02:07 PM. |
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12-28-2005, 02:09 PM | #47 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(off-topic - hey Lief, you have some unclaimed Christmas presents over in the rpg Christmas party thread ... )
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12-28-2005, 02:13 PM | #48 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-28-2005, 04:23 PM | #49 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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I wonder... if it's all a scheme, where are my grandparents families, who died in the holocaust? You suggest they went to hide 60 years? I do find it rather insulting. I do feel the denial is simply hatred. It has no base. How would you feel if someone suggested you your nation faked the death of millions only to have independence, when all evidence shows the opposite? That - Quote:
Is this thread really about whether there's a proof for the holocaust or not? Or is it to condemn the new 'wave' of people who deny it? (Do I really want to hear the answer? ) |
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12-28-2005, 06:19 PM | #50 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-28-2005, 07:50 PM | #51 |
of the House of Fëanor
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How the hell this utterly derogatory, ugly-looking, no-purpose-serving, "conspiracy theory / hypothetical devil's advocate game" JOKE of a nasty thread is still open, is so beyond me it boggles the mind. WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD?? To play "what if" games? To pretend a thing like the Holocaust did not happen, for a fun way to pass the friggin' TIME?? This really, really bothers me deeply, this whole thread. It has taken a perniciously, very subtly evil and downright disturbing turn. It was a ridiculous question to even bring up to discuss int the first place, no offense Lief. It has gotten me seriously wondering about some mooters, and NOT in a good way. In an unsettled way.
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12-28-2005, 07:57 PM | #52 | ||
Elf Lord
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Discussing Holocaust denial's extent is another aspect of this thread. Decrying this wave or attacking Holocaust denial is certainly acceptable on this thread, so long as doing this does not turn to personal attacks on Entmooters. Right from the beginning of the thread, I made discussion and learning the position of Holocaust deniers a part of the thread's purpose. But Radagast, as I said before, I leave to you the decision of whether or not this topic should be discussed. If you think we just shouldn't discuss it here on Entmoot, because you are a Jew and Israeli, I'll respect that and ask that the thread be closed.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-28-2005 at 08:09 PM. |
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12-28-2005, 08:15 PM | #53 |
of the House of Fëanor
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So, if "so many people" (whoever these people are, it could matter less) are making news about their ideas that Slavery in America never happened, and that actually the Africans wanted to come over to America on their own to seek a new life and better job options, would you open a new thread and encourage people here to entertain THAT idea too? You know what, forget it. This kind of thing, this kind of forum or "topic of discussion" thread is ideal for calling out some mooters true colours and masked, underlying ideas about a thing. For one thing, I definitely do not buy Captain Stern's "devil's advocate" line. I am seeing some brand new true colours in that one, for sure. And you others, who KNOW in their heart that this is not a topic to idly play ridiculous what-if talk games about. Do any of you even REALise how MANY human beings, both dead and alive and TO BE BORN are harmed by this kind of lunacy?
Screw this, I give up. Have fun with your little parlour game. I hope you gain great insight into the "truth" as you see it, and you know who you are. |
12-28-2005, 08:20 PM | #54 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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12-28-2005, 08:25 PM | #55 | |
Elf Lord
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This plainly is an important issue. Holocaust denial is spreading. I believe firmly in understanding why and how major lies are lies. It is because of Holocaust deniers that the Holocaust was able to go on as long as it did! At the time of World War 2, just about everyone was a Holocaust denier. Very few believed what was happening. This fact made it much easier for the Nazis to destroy Jews. The Holocaust denial view is an anti-semitic threat to world society. Understanding the truth about it is essential to defeating it.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-28-2005, 08:31 PM | #56 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Refusal to "discuss it?" To discuss what, Lief? Do you actually believe that there is something that could happen to cause the ENTIRE thinking, cogent planet to cease believing that World War Two and the extermination project of Hitler against Jews and other peoples ever happened? Is this a big fear of yours, that the whole planet is ignorant and willfully evil enough to pretend like something this ridiculous is true? Are you that worried people might believe that the Holocaust never happened? And if you ARE, well how are said people going to be able to convince the rest of the powers and nations and billions of people worldwide to believe their schtik? Hmm. Maybe you would, if this is such a point of interest and question...
Please, don't even bother answering these questions - they're rhetorical, just like this pointless thread. Last edited by Lotesse : 12-28-2005 at 08:33 PM. |
12-28-2005, 08:31 PM | #57 | |
Elf Lord
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If the Jews killed in the Holocaust are to continue to be acknowledged and their deaths are to continue to be dignified, then Holocaust denial must be confronted and stopped. If Holocaust denial is to be confronted, it must be understood. If it is to be understood, we have to have a devil's advocate, or at least a stomach for research and learning about unpleasant as well as pleasant topics.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-28-2005 at 09:41 PM. |
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12-28-2005, 08:34 PM | #58 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-28-2005 at 08:38 PM. |
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12-28-2005, 08:38 PM | #59 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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12-28-2005, 08:47 PM | #60 |
Elf Lord
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I'll just have to leave the equality discussion to another time, another place. I don't want a moderator to close this thread due to internal arguing. I'm certainly willing to discuss it with you over PM if you want, though.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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