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#41 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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Saruman the white = evil. So much for the theory.
Tolkien had more of a grudge against white industrialists than any race. Coal miners with blackened faces, WWI troops with night camo and dirty faces: these images were more a part of Tolkien's inspiration than his limited or even non-existent contact with dark-skinned ethnic groups. All of the conversations amoung orcs sound more like eastenders than foreigners. It is easy to see that the use of the Haradrim is meant as something remote and exotic. The use of elephants in combat goes back to to the carthaginians. Is it open to racist interpretation? It's possible. Is it racially motivated? Not a shred of proof. All conspiracy theorists like this depend on trying to force it's opponents to disprove the unproven. Such a great writer would have no problem clearly expounding a racist theme if that was his intent. It is just the age old use of dark and light to represent evil and good. Anything racists speak of is garbage anyway. It matters not what they believe.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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#42 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Hobbiton
Posts: 739
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Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES! |
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#43 | ||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 01-04-2003 at 09:02 PM. |
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#44 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Hobbiton
Posts: 739
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Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES! |
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#45 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
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The History of ME-books, volume 10 (?), Morgoths Ring. However he didn't get to finish these changes before he died (I think).
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
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#46 | ||||
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 36
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If it was meant as a reply to me, I'd suggest you go back and re-read, then take a look at a parallel example: Louis Farrakhan thinks Jews are evil for the most part, but also thinks certain Black people are evil. Therefore, nothing he says can have racist implications. Right? My point is not that Tolkien was consciously, or viciously, racist in this same sense -- simply that isolated counterexamples aren't sufficient to debunk the existence a general, and persistent, theme in someone's remarks or writings. Unless, of course, you're willing to disavow the existence of racism generally. Quote:
And, though that's the element most people seem to be focussing on, I've said before and I will say again -- "race" is far more than a question of colour, both in our society and in Tolkien. Quite apart from skin colour, "race" is fundamentally a notion of discrete groups of people with common inherited personality traits and cultures. I don't see how it's possible to deny the importance of this idea in Tolkien's books, including LotR. It's absolutely basic to his portrayal of many of the characters and to the plot. Eg. Aragorn is the returning King, and the most capable of Men, because of the relative purity of his Dunadan blood. Quote:
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#47 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 36
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First, as I pointed out earlier, the Easterlings were not swarthy guys -- Tolkien never describes them as such. They fall under the second category of race distinictions I mentioned in my original post, not the first. So there are still no examples of swarthy good guys that I can find. Second, as noted above, a few isolated counter-examples -- while they bring some nuance to the picture -- don't necessarily debunk general trends. If I wrote thousands of pages of stories in which I was given to portraying such-and-such ethnic group (Jews, say) as a monolithic race who were money-grubbing and evil, then threw in a good Jewish character for one paragraph in which he was promptly killed, I shouldn't point to that paragraph and say "hey! look! I'm not an anti-Semite!" Well, I could, but people could be forgiven for not taking my protestations too seriously. Third, whether or not Tolkien was a racist isn't that important. What's at issue is how much his writing lends itself to racist interpretations. I'd say that it does, though not to the degree that Shapiro (or certain white supremacist groups, for that matter) imagine. |
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#48 | ||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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The fact is that race is very subjective and not discreet at all. There are many degrees, to the point of imperceptability, between all phenotypes. Tolkien uses the word very loosely. Elves, dwarves, men, and orcs are very different (elves being immortal kind of sticks out). Toliken was not likely to use the term subspecies in a work of fiction, though it would have been more appropriate. The race of the evil cast is irrelevant to the plot. The only race issues that enter into the plot are those of the elves, the numenorians, and the dwarves and this is due to the life spans and how they effect personal histories and choices. Swarthy can mean dark complected like arabic or even armenian, generally speaking. Tolkien was english so swarthy could be someone who's been out in the sun. ![]() Aragorn is made king because he is the last living heir of the last king of gondor to have children, namely Isildur. Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 01-04-2003 at 11:12 PM. |
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#49 | |||||||
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 36
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(another long one, sorry! I'm probably going to stop after this -- feel like I'm repeating myself a lot.)
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In fact, I don't think the whole question of swarthiness is a plot device or story mechanism -- it's a more marginal or decorative thing, something used as window dressing, as a way of making the setting more evocative for Tolkien's reader. "Race" in the second sense I'm using the term is much more central, though. Quote:
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The Men of the West, the Elves, the Dwarves of Durin -- all are riven with factions, produce both heroes and villains, have complicated characters who agonize over their choices, undertake doomed and misguided quests, experience love and joy and torment and wrath. It's not just that we never see those complexities in Easterlings and Southroners -- but that Tolkien, when he describes them, does so in terms that almost rule them out. Quote:
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#50 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 36
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One more note, to Cirdan: when trying to prove that Tolkien's writing doesn't have racist implications, you'll want to refrain from quoting the famous "arish" letter.
A) The people you're quoting it at probably know it already; B) Disliking the Nazis and their policies doesn't necessarily say anything meaningful about whether or not a person was a racist (eg. Winston Churchill didn't like the Nazis, but really was no angel on the subject of race himself); C) In any case, the point is really NOT whether Tolkien was a racist, but whether the texts in question do or don't lend themselves to racist interpretations, and the extend to which that's so. Now I really am repeating myself. Time to call a halt. |
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#51 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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Well, I've read your post and I've interpreted it to mean that you don't think there is any racism in Tolkien's work and that Shapiro is all wrong. But that's just my interpretation.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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#52 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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I don't know about you Cirdan, but my opinion of Tolkien is slightly biased in his favour - in my mind, he can practically do no wrong. However, I stand by my original post, which lives on page 2.
I am slightly confused about ils' view on this debate, I'm always open to new ideas from fellow 'Mooters. ![]()
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#53 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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So do I, N, but that doesn't mean that equating Tolkien's made up "races" of elves, dwaves, etc. with racism, a word used to describe the worst in real world humans, isn't revisionist. Like the book it's just fantasy. I'm also sensitive about false racism claims as they detract from the fight against the very real problem.
Your post was quite clear and to the point, btw.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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#54 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 36
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And, much as I admire Tolkien and enjoy his books -- and I do -- I don't think he can do no wrong. Okay, now I'm really done. ![]() |
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#55 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 36
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#56 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
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"open to racist interpretations"?
Interpretation is a subjective thing. You can't fault an object for other people's subjective interpretations. If you look in the mirror and see a racist, don't blame the mirror. As for your other dismissals of my clear and straightforward and supportable statements, such as the fact that orcs are not a race but are good being who have been twisted, I can only say that you are not "open to being convinced". You have clearly drawn your conclusions prior to examination and will only be convinced by each little item that can be "interpreted" as you see fit. Good people can be twisted to badness. That's all I see in the work. Likewise, good writing can be twisted to hateful purposes. I don't think I need to prove that; thousands of people die every day from it. It's a very sad truth and I am offended that anyone would do it to Tolkien. But then I'm even more offended that people do it with the teachings of Jesus. So I'm outa this thread.
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cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 01-06-2003 at 12:21 PM. |
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#57 | |||
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 36
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I keep saying I'm done with this thread, but I keep coming back.. like Saruman drawn to his palantir, I guess.
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When Tolkien's writing has an entire people descended, apparently by reproduction, from an original core group and you claim that doesn't qualify as a "race," I can only say you're grasping at straws. And starting with that original core group, Tolkien seems to pretty clearly say that their evil from then on is bred in. I've tried to provide some specific parallel examples as to why I think this is relevant. If you don't like them that's fine, but you're better off giving some reasons for this rather than just saying: Quote:
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#58 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
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I did not say it does or does not support any kind of interpretation. I said an interpretation of the sort that is endorsed in this thread says more about the interpreter than it does about the thing that is being distorted.
Orcs are not a race. I am 100% certain that even if I quote chapter and verse to this effect you will not be convinced. I did not say it does not support this that or the other thing. I said it can support whatever you want it to support. If you want it to support something vile, that's your problem. edit: I guess I'll have to also point out that you misinterpreted my words written just a few minutes ago, and that is proof enough for me that you are more inclined to find things that are not there so long as they have even the slightest chance of supporting your outlandish claims.
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cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 01-06-2003 at 05:37 PM. |
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#59 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
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I don't want to get into an argument, but is it possible that since Tolkien created ME as a mythology for England, that the foreign races are simply the factual historical enemies of England? I don't know if I can express exactly what I mean, but I'm not saying that they are a representation of them, but are them. I mean, if ME is our world a long time ago, and in truth the enemies of England were foreigners of all kinds, then it would make sense that these other races would be the enemies of the Celtic-like good men of ME. (I'm talking about the bad men, not the orcs). I have to admit that the fact that the men from the bad side had dark skin was something I noticed when I last read the books. But it didn't seem racist to me, just a geographical thing. I don't know. I can see ils' point, but yet I agree that Tolkien had no racist intentions in writing it that way.
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#60 | |||
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 36
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I will say... YET AGAIN... that I don't believe this is all there is to Tolkien's work, and that I do believe there are elements of Tolkien's writing that clearly allow it to surpass the racial overtones it contains. It is only PART of a very dense and layered epic. Anyone who reads Tolkien and sees simply a fantasy of white supremacist domination is obviously ignoring huge chunks of the text. All that, however, doesn't mean I'm willing to deny that this stuff is there AT ALL or that I'm willing to watch people be unfairly slandered for bringing attention to it. [quote]Orcs are not a race. I am 100% certain that even if I quote chapter and verse to this effect you will not be convinced./quote] Well, I'm afraid you're mistaken. If you can provide me a quote from LotR that says or even implies that orcs are not a race, I will indeed be convinced. It's not like I'm claiming to be an omniscient Tolkien scholar or anything. I just don't happen to recollect such a quote, there or anywhere else. I DO recollect a story in the Silmarillion regarding the creation of the progenitors of the orcs, which seemed to me to be a racial origin story. If you have a different take on it, I'll be happy to talk about why that is. Quote:
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
This may be a load of rubbish but... | Twista | Lord of the Rings Movies | 27 | 01-08-2004 05:09 PM |
Orcs - absolute rubbish or what??? | Gerbil | Lord of the Rings Movies | 57 | 04-28-2002 01:50 PM |