Tolkien Errors and Anachronisms

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

The #1 "error" (more an omission) to me is:

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/eagles.html

Much as I respect Sean for his Germanic Lexicon work, I have to disagree with him on the eagles as the way to dispose of the ring, much less as a way of transporting a hobbit.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Wally

One that immediately comes to mind is after Frodo and Sam have escaped Cirith Ungol and are beginning their trek inside Mordor. This is the scene where Sam says that if Shagrat were to give him a glass of water, he would shake his hand.

Now Tolkien makes it clear elsewhere that bowls were used for drinking when at table, or mugs when in pub. This, I think, is an error on his part, as I really doubt that glasses were used for drinking in Middle-Earth, and that neither he nor the editors caught it.

Well, not really, I'm afraid. The use of the English word "glass" to signify any kind of vessel or receptacle dates to the 13th century, and specifically as a container for drinking liquid to the late 14th. "Mug" doesn't become used in this sense until the 17th century. "Bowl" might be appropriate, but in modern English if Sam had said a "bowl of water" it would convey a somewhat different image to the reader than a "glass of water" does, since a drinking glass is at least in the pre-1950 sense smaller than a bowl. "Flagon" as a receptacle of liquid postdates "glass" in that sense by a century, at least in English. "Flask" likewise in its pre-modern senses would be too large for Shagrat to offer Sam. So I'm not sure that "glass" really counts as anachronism.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I can recall the firework's dragon which passed "like an express train".

Good example, but I have to wonder whether it fits the "anachronism" definition. It doesn't say that the "express train" existed in Middle Earth, but rather that the fireworks dragon passed by like one, i. e. something in that world was like something in this world, and as a comparative (a simile, in this case) I'm not sure we can claim it as anachronism.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Peter_20

I always found it fairly unfitting how Gandalf mentioned a "pop gun" in The Hobbit.
Were there guns in Arda?

Oh, and why is it that Tolkien uses Spanish and Italian names and expressions?
There's this hobbit named Blanco, and I also recall Merry going "hey presto!".

I don't recall the "presto" thing, but "Blanco" comes from Beowulf, with some adjustment. Hobbit names as Tollers tells us end in -o (hence medieval Froda becomes Frodo); blanc- refers to a white or shining horse in Beowulf and is related to the OE verb blican, to shine.

As for "presto", its Italian in origin, but becomes a common English word in the middle of the 16th century, so has been English too for 5 centuries.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Wally

Yes, you are correct about all that. I had noticed Orcs calling 'hola' to each other, and rabbits being called 'coneys', whereas Spanish for rabbit is conejo, or 'coney' for short. This is the kind of thing that I would have expected from JK Rowling, not JRR Tolkien. Maybe he just put stuff like that in there to see if anyone would notice.

I again don't recall the "hola" reference, but like "presto" this is a word that comes into English in the 16th century, and so is perfectly good English by this time. It is related to words like "hello" and "holler" and "hallow" in the sense of to hail and so on.

Re: coney, this one has an interesting history to me. It comes into Spanish and Old French via Latin, cuniculus, which ANCIENT authorities say was a word that came from the pre-Latin languages of Spain. Anyway, it comes into English via Anglo-French in the 13th century, about the time that rabbits were introduced to England (and the word rabbit doesn't come into English for 2 centuries after that).

It is interesting that Sam knows about coneys. But what is more interesting is that they seem to be a rather late introduction into Northern Europe: none of the Gaelic or Germanic languages have a "native" word for them but borrow a form of "cuniculus". ANd it is Ithilien, in the south, that we encounter our coneys, not in the north. It is interesting too that the narrator uses the term "rabbits", but Sam the character uses "coney". Anyway, I'm not sure why this is unworthy of Tolkien.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

You're missing the main point, though. Someone could have suggested at the meeting at Elrond's that the Eagles fly Frodo and the ring into Mordor with the response being, "No, we cannot do that as Sauron changed into a vampiric bat before and might do so again to stop him."

As Sherlock Holmes put it, the biggest clue is the dog that didn't bark. There was no such discussion.

True, but then one must ask whether the eagles indeed would have taken part at all and whether all there knew it.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

I've never heard of or read this, can you provide a reference, please?

On the latter point, on the one hand, what imbecile would leave his one significant point of vulnerability unguarded during wartime?! On the other hand, anything is possible.

On the former point, see my immediately prior response (considering the Eagles had just flew Gandalf from Orthanc to Rivendell, it strains credulation to explain the failure of anyone at Elrond's Council to even broach the possibility of flying the ring into Mordor as anything but either an oversight or a deliberate omission so as to make the remainder of the story possible).

First, you have to conceive of it as a point of vulnerability. Sauron obviously thought Mordor unassailable.

Second, when you're faced with an army at your doorstep, it seems silly to have a unit in a place where should the army on the doorstep break through, and win, having a unit at the Cracks of Doom is simply a waste of orcpower.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I don't believe many people knew about the Eagles as an ally. Or, there is always the very real possibility that they could not imagine it would be that simple.

I'm not sure we can call them "allies" in the usual sense. They are sort of above all that. Note that when we see them, we see them confabbing with the Istari: Gandalf specifically. We see only two instances of them with "elves": Elrond's sons evidently sought news of them and Galadriel had Gwahir search for Gandalf.

They seem to me to be rather "above" it all in LoTR in a way they aren't in The Hobbit.

[Tessar]

Whoa! Forkbeard! o.O

Next time you want to quote a bunch of posts, it's usually easier and better if you just cut/paste the quotes into a text editor, and turn it all into one post rather than make ten different ones.

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'm not sure we can call them "allies" in the usual sense. They are sort of above all that. Note that when we see them, we see them confabbing with the Istari: Gandalf specifically. We see only two instances of them with "elves": Elrond's sons evidently sought news of them and Galadriel had Gwahir search for Gandalf.

They seem to me to be rather "above" it all in LoTR in a way they aren't in The Hobbit.

Eve in the Hobbit, all the eagles did to help was not for the sake of their so-called Allies, but for the sake of their hatred of the orcs. The initial rescue of the party of 14 fom the trees was a lucky coincidence.

[GrayMouser]

"How The Lord of the Rings Should have Ended."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP-aKSiPibo
YouTube - Lord of the rings (the short version)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Finrod Felagund

Eve in the Hobbit, all the eagles did to help was not for the sake of their so-called Allies, but for the sake of their hatred of the orcs. The initial rescue of the party of 14 fom the trees was a lucky coincidence.

I'm not sure about that. The Lord of the Eagles had a political position, too. He knew who Gandalf was, and probably what, at least, the Hobbits were. He was going to be fighting Evil, anyway, might as well develop some support during "the age of Men".

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

First, you have to conceive of it as a point of vulnerability. Sauron obviously thought Mordor unassailable.

Second, when you're faced with an army at your doorstep, it seems silly to have a unit in a place where should the army on the doorstep break through, and win, having a unit at the Cracks of Doom is simply a waste of orcpower.

While it is true hindsight is always 20-20, in retrospect, what was sillier of Sauron, to have had a small guard posted 24/7 to protect his one true area of vulnerability from a stealth infiltration that a huge army couldn't necessarily see or stop -or- not "waste" the orcpower.

Next thing I know you'll tell me Smaug would have been silly to have filled that tiny little unprotected hole in his otherwise jewel-encrusted underside!

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

While it is true hindsight is always 20-20, in retrospect, what was sillier of Sauron, to have had a small guard posted 24/7 to protect his one true area of vulnerability from a stealth infiltration that a huge army couldn't necessarily see or stop -or- not "waste" the orcpower.

Indeed, and so one has to STOP using hindsight in order to assess the situation correctly. As pointed out, Sauron didn't see it as a vulnerability. His "ofermod" didn't consider the possibility that they would try and actually destroy the Ring. Ergo, why guard something unnecessary to guard, particularly when faced with an armed invasion at his gates?

Next thing I know you'll tell me Smaug would have been silly to have filled that tiny little unprotected hole in his otherwise jewel-encrusted underside!

Which he again has to be aware of as a "chink" in his armor in order to fill.

[Jon S.]

You're making my points for me, Fork. Just as the U.S. government could have prevented 9-11 because the clues were there but we missed 'em, so Sauron and Smaug, had they done their homework, would have assessed and ascertained their own vulnerabilities or, better yet, assembled a Council of sorts and sought out the larger view.

Without SHOUTING to emphasize my point, let me just add that life is full of circumstances where the victimized or defeated person says afterwards (if he's alive to say it), "I just never imagined my opponent would do that." In fact, the best military commanders do exactly the opposite - they try to imagine their opponents doing the unthinkable specifically because they know that's what the best opponents do.

Sauron had one experience with this. When he captured and tortured Gollum, he learned things about the Ring, where it had gone, and who currently had it that he also probably never imagined. You would have thought the doofus would have then ordered his minions to capture a few elves and men and question them, too.

In the end, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I don't think the men of Minas Tirith expected an attack on the withered White Tree any more than Sauron expected a visit to Mount Doom yet the former posted a continuous guard. That's the normal response. Sauron's leaving Mount Doom completely vulnerable was abnormal. I won't call it an error or anachronism on Tolkien's part per se but it is a strange part of the tale.

[Beorndog]

Sauron knew it was impossible for any Man,Dwarf or Elf to throw the Ring in the Cracks of Doom. Only a Hobbit (which Sauron did not understand) could have resisted the temptation long enough to get it so far and in the end Frodo sucumbed and only the intervention of Gollum allowed the Quest to be succesfully completed.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

[T]he best military commanders do exactly the opposite - they try to imagine their opponents doing the unthinkable specifically because they know that's what the best opponents do.

I really am embarrassed to be quoting myself.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

You're making my points for me, Fork. Just as the U.S. government could have prevented 9-11 because the clues were there but we missed 'em, so Sauron and Smaug, had they done their homework, would have assessed and ascertained their own vulnerabilities or, better yet, assembled a Council of sorts and sought out the larger view.

Not really, Jon. Why would Sauron consider the heart of his realm a vulnerable spot? Even if they came to destroy the Ring, all entrances to his realm were well guarded. Sam, Frodo, and Gollum did not get by unmarked and unnoticied. Were it not for eucatastrophe, that no one could have foreseen, they would have been captured and that would be the end of it. No one could foresee Gollum's aid. No one could foresee the "battle" at Cirith Ungol that allowed Sam to rescue Frodo. No one could foresee the trackers failure at the very cusp of success. Further, who could resist the pull of the Ring and actually throw it in? NOt even Frodo who got so far could, and only by the accident of Gollum falling into the lava was the Ring lost and Sauron overthrown, an accident that it is doubtful a troop of orcs could have prevented.

Without SHOUTING to emphasize my point, let me just add that life is full of circumstances where the victimized or defeated person says afterwards (if he's alive to say it), "I just never imagined my opponent would do that." In fact, the best military commanders do exactly the opposite - they try to imagine their opponents doing the unthinkable specifically because they know that's what the best opponents do.;

The operative word there is "try". Sauron did have it all figured out. Every path into Mordor was guarded at multiple points. Not even a spy got in without being noticed.

Sauron had one experience with this. When he captured and tortured Gollum, he learned things about the Ring, where it had gone, and who currently had it that he also probably never imagined. You would have thought the doofus would have then ordered his minions to capture a few elves and men and question them, too.

And just where is he going to capture a few elves? Walk up to Thranduil's gates and ask for a couple to be handed over? And just what men would know anything?

In the end, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I don't think the men of Minas Tirith expected an attack on the withered White Tree any more than Sauron expected a visit to Mount Doom yet the former posted a continuous guard.

Um, no they didn't. There was the Guard of the Citadel, who guarded Denethor's seat like any military headquarters, and standing guard at the doors of the Citadel meant standing guard in the courtyard where the White Tree stood. But the guard was not on the White Tree. Likewise, while we aren't told, I think we can be certain that Baradur as Sauron's headquarters had guard at its doors as well. But that hardly indicates that an attack was expected imminently at either place or that a weakness was there. It indicates something about the nature of headquarters in military organizations. The Cracks of Doom isn't headquarters.
That's the normal response. Sauron's leaving Mount Doom completely vulnerable was abnormal. I won't call it an error or anachronism on Tolkien's part per se but it is a strange part of the tale.[/QUOTE]

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

I really am embarrassed to be quoting myself.

You should be, since you're in error.

[Jon S.]

I have nothing more to add, the last word is yours.