04-13-2006, 12:03 AM | #41 | ||
Elf Lord
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I have some trouble drawing that boundary though - I definitely think that there are a lot of people who identify with Christianity, Islam or any other religion because they were "born into it" - thus subscribing to the religion for them is more of a cultural thing than an active choice to follow that particular faith over any other faith (or no faith). But what if a person has turned their mind to the question of what their religion stands for, and has made a conscious choice to practice most, but not all of the tenets that it has had historically? Which category of followers do they fall into? Or what if a whole lot of people rank some tenets higher than others, and practice the religion in light of this? Sure an argument can be made that they are not really practicing the religion (in fundamentalist terms), or that they are practicing a different religion...but if they identify themselves with the original religion is there any point in giving them a different label? (except for the purposes of argument of course - if this thread is only concerned with certain Muslims, then there is certainly a point Quote:
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04-13-2006, 01:56 AM | #42 | |
Elf Lord
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I know that I could not change my views because of this and remain honest with myself, of course. The only way I could change my views is by being convinced by reason and evidence that I'm wrong. There is also the option of keeping my mouth closed, but I'm not sure that's a good idea either. If more people were aware of the nature of this threat (assuming I'm right), we might be better prepared to deal with it as it grows. I'm still very much in consideration on this matter, at present. I'm not sure what the right course is right now, and am working to sort that out. It'll probably take a while, for me.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-13-2006 at 01:59 AM. |
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04-13-2006, 12:25 PM | #43 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Psst...it was Saturday!
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-13-2006, 02:52 PM | #44 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Oh, that's right!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-13-2006, 09:16 PM | #45 |
Elf Lord
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The trial of Moussaoui is certainly riveting.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
04-14-2006, 10:10 AM | #46 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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If you want to say that nazis or klan members are not christian because they do not interpret the bible as you have, that is fine. But it is the same book that you hold to be true that they draw their beliefs from. And I'm not talking about "casual believers". I'm talking about people who shape their lives to a large extent around the words in the bible. They just interpret those words in a radically different way that other people do. The same can be said of islam, a faith which, at it's core, is basically an intepretation and elaboration on christianity, just as christianity is an intepretation and elaboration on judeism. There is no "correct interpretation", only "individual interpretations". As I mentioned earlier, what perpetuates the conflict is not seeing this big picture and instead taking a stance that basically says, "the peaceful christians are the true christians and the violent ones are just deluded, while the peaceful muslims are the deluded ones and it is the violent ones who hold the true faith." (Or the opposite stance, for that matter.) This sounds fine in principle: Quote:
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04-14-2006, 10:52 AM | #47 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Christianity and Islam are similar in many respects. However, they differ as to how one receives salvation, and that is the most important doctrinal issue. Quote:
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You can also see this very clearly in Mohammed's followers' invasions of the Sassanid and Byzantine Empires. Religion has a BIG influence on how people think and how they behave. You can see it also in how current Muslim radicals think. You can see religion or the lack there-of having a major impact on how EVERYONE lives their lives. If they are fervent religious believers, they act in ways that correspond with their religions. If they aren't fervent religious believers, they act in ways that correspond with their lack of religion. Religion has an enormous impact upon how people think and also upon politics. Many wars have started because of religion, and have also much cruelty has been done because of anti-religious sentiment (see China's policies. And there's no evidence this Buddhist meeting is a major policy change). Non-religious people in the Communist Party also have perpetrated horrors to mankind. If they were all Buddhists, perhaps they wouldn't have!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-14-2006, 01:20 PM | #48 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Religion was certainly used as a motivator, but that hits at the core of what I have been trying to explain. Belief systems themselves do not cause violence, but they can be used to inspire it by influencial officals. This is why they are best kept separate from government, and why the intermixing of the two inevitably leads to trouble. It does not matter what the scriptures themselves say. As I've mentioned, any book of text can be re-interpreted to fit the needs of the situation, as christians have done and muslims as well. Look deeply enough into any religious conflict and you will find someone at the source who has a lot to gain, be it wealth or power.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-14-2006, 03:03 PM | #49 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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The Aztecs bloodily offered human sacrifices to their deities, not because this was politically useful, but because they religiously felt it was right. Protestants during the Religious Wars believed the Pope was the Anti-Christ and Catholics must be butchered because of religion. Politics were involved in some of these conflicts, but religion was the major driving force between much of the bloodshed. Modern Muslim extremists blow themselves to shreds with a lot of other people because they believe that's the quick road to paradise, and they're taking out a part of the Great Satan. Religion is a key root of conflict. It's not all power and wealth. People live their lives according to what they believe is true. If they believe there is no God, people feel free to live their lives in different ways than do many people who believe there is a God. Religion determines how people act. If I believe the Pope is the doctrinally infallible Mouth of God, I believe what he says about Islamic persecutions of Christians without question and go to the Middle East to fight in the Crusades. If I believe that America is the Great Satan, I go and fight it! Belief or unbelief, and views, are what determine the way people behave. Quote:
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Modern extremist Islam is no different. They are taking on the superpower of the world and the mighty Western nations. This is a tough line to take, and there is a large price Osama Bin Laden and other extremists pay. Osama Bin Laden was independently enormously wealthy before his attack on the United States, but now he is drained of much of his finances, has lost his base in Afghanistan, and is forced to be endlessly on the run. Not a fun life to live, and there is little benefit. People in the European Christian Religious Wars were no different either. They fought wars for no reason other than religion! Louis 14th revoked the Edict of Nantes that provided peace for the Calvinists in his country solely for religious reasons. This alienated from him a significant portion of his country, a part of his country that would constantly tear at the fabric of France afterward. King Philip attacked England with his Spanish Armada for religious reasons. The Puritans fought the Catholics because they believed the Pope was the Anti-Christ. The Muslim ridda wars were certainly religious conflicts as well as political. Many of the wars of history have been entirely about religion. You are really, really underestimating the amount of force religion is in people's lives. I think the reason you are doing this is that you are looking from a modern perspective. People in the past viewed their wars as a clash between heaven and hell, the forces of God and Satan. Even many political leaders thought this way, and the common man certainly did. Hitler slaughtered millions of Jews because he believed all Jews were evil. This was not really a religious belief, so far as I can tell, but it was a powerful belief nonetheless. People act on their beliefs. President Ahmadinejad of Iran is a threat to the West because of his religious views. Note too that he has filled his government with clerics, religious zealots. Religion determines his outlook in part, as it does President Bush's views. A common modern Western worldview is commonly less religious- our lack of moral structure in society is one of the reasons Serenoli discarded our Western way of living as anarchy. She's coming from a different perspective. In the past, people's outlook was: "My actions on Earth determine my eternal fate. I am either going to burn in hellfire for eternity or I am going to eternally live in paradisial bliss, depending on what I do. I must follow the Lord!" Some Christian women killed their babies at birth because they believed God would attend to them certainly that way, and they wouldn't have to risk sinn ing and ending up in hellfire. Religion was terrifying and incredibly inspiring. It inspired devotion and love light years beyond that of the most hormone driven teenager, and it also inspired hatred and wrath. Even many political leaders were extremely religious. Mohammed was originally persecuted because he preached to the tribes that their ancestors who had not worshipped the true God were in hell, and that their skin was being burned off and then replaced, and burned off and replaced, and burned off and replaced, for ever and ever. He said this in a culture that worshipped their ancestors, literally. Naturally, they persecuted Mohammed. This was not because of wealth or power, but because of belief. Mohammed could easily have eased his teachings and made them less charged. He would have made himself acceptable to a much larger number in this way too. Instead, he stuck to what he believed and he fought based on his religious perspective, with much smaller numbers than they might have had. Mohammed took an uncompromising religious hard line that brought much moral advancement. Muslim views did not appeal to the tribes of Saudi Arabia. As soon as Mohammed died, all of those tribes he had forced into submission revolted again, and Abu Bakr had to reconquer them all in the Ridda (Apostasy) Wars. Brownjenkins, I feel you are failing to grasp a key reason behind historical perspectives, because those perspectives are so foreign to your own.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-14-2006, 08:18 PM | #50 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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..just a thought...and I'll probably regret stopping here.........if we look at today's reality instead of comparing historical wrongs by religion, it may facilitate discussion.
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04-15-2006, 02:48 AM | #51 | |
Elf Lord
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Have you been keeping up on the trial of Moussaoui, Spock? Just spooky, that is. For me, it's the most riveting modern trial I've ever followed. Here's a link about it: Moussaoui Trial Other key modern issues would include aid for the Palestinian Authority. Russia has now promised to supply the Palestinian Authority with finances. One of the nasty aspects of cutting off aid to the PA is that while it isolates them from the West, it increases the unity of extremist Muslim groups. Russia also seems to be favoring these groups, probably because Muslim extremism confronting Russia's rivals would weaken us, while Russia gets a chance to strengthen. Competitive advantage. I just hope China doesn't get involved, backing the PA as well. Or other countries. It's very worrisome how this situation with Israel serves to unify Muslim extremists and serve as a catalyst for the spread of their ideology. Meanwhile, Ahmadinejad continues his anti-US and anti-Israel rhetoric, saying Israel was "a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm" and promising that "Palestine will be liberated soon." The Supreme Leader Ayatollah also continues his rhetoric in what BBC News calls a "scathing attack" on the West. Hamas PM Ismail Hamiya claims the US leads an "unholy alliance," and said there would be (BBC News) "no surrender to the demands of Israel or the West." These are some of the major modern Middle East stories.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-15-2006 at 02:53 AM. |
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04-15-2006, 03:06 AM | #52 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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04-15-2006, 10:35 AM | #53 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Religion doesn't kill people. People kill people. But I think you realize this more or less, whether you admit it to yourself or not. Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-15-2006, 10:42 AM | #54 | |||||
An enigma in a conundrum
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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04-15-2006, 10:44 AM | #55 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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04-15-2006, 10:54 AM | #56 | |
Hobbit
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Not that i'm complaining, i love the fact that the christians are finally being seen for what they really are..... can't beat honesty |
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04-15-2006, 11:00 AM | #57 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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I won't try to explain GWB's beliefs nor the statement you attribute to him.
I will say-don't paint Christians with a dirty brush. no, I will not explain that.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
04-15-2006, 12:20 PM | #58 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
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See all the examples I posted above of incidents where people kill others based on religion and religion alone. I think it's obvious from the cost they have paid that religion is a primary reason for the modern Muslim terrorists' actions. Quote:
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That was a freaky missile test the Iranians recently accomplished, wasn't it? They test fired the most advanced underwater missile of modern times. Another form of power that's worrisome to see in Iranian hands, considering their threats and the Islamic extremism that dominates their government.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-15-2006, 12:24 PM | #59 | |
Hobbit
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They must do, or they'd publically refute his words and tell him not to use Gods name in vain (or for his own agenda), it's hardly as if the modern church doesn't have a voice which brings huge media attention. It is odd tho', for a coupla decades there after WW2 the church tried, once again, to bring people back to their churches by preaching peace and love.....and now their most popularised member is doing it again with war and terror..... i guess nothing really changes for long, as long as it fills the pulpits eh |
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04-15-2006, 12:29 PM | #60 | |
Hobbit
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Tell me.... do you, as a christian, think GW Bush is carrying out God's will? |
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