Holocaust Denial

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

I love conspiracy theories

Well theres a difference between conspiracy theories and complete and utter paranoid delusions. Perhaps Hitler was actually trying to save the world from the brain washers and really was a swell chap. Every ream of evidence suggests otherwise though.

Remember we still have first hand witnesses to this. Its not like we are talking about the Salem witch trials or something. We have people in their 80s and 90s with concentration camp tattoos on their arms and terrifying memories they still wrestle with to this day. We even have former nazis who have admitted to it. Lots of them. And if it was one vast huge conspiracy then where are all the millions of people lost? How did they die? How did they disappear? If its simply a conspiracy then you should be able to account for them. Did they all move to an invisible island somewhere? There are countless photographs of them. There are countless survivors who lost brothers or sisters or parents or children who can tell you about them down to the fine hair detail. How can we just explain that away?

[HOBBIT]

I'm all for conspiracy theories,but trying to argue against the existence of the Holocaust is just in poor taste. It is very insulting to Jews for obvious reasons. And all of humanity for that matter. Is that your intent?


All Holocaust denial is is a really hateful attack on Jews. That is all it is.

It's disgusting that even for arguments sake you are trying to argue that it was "faked."

[brownjenkins]

insulting to humanity i'd say... the holocaust is about all of us

[Captain Stern]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Well theres a difference between conspiracy theories and complete and utter paranoid delusions. Perhaps Hitler was actually trying to save the world from the brain washers and really was a swell chap. Every ream of evidence suggests otherwise though.

Remember we still have first hand witnesses to this. Its not like we are talking about the Salem witch trials or something. We have people in their 80s and 90s with concentration camp tattoos on their arms and terrifying memories they still wrestle with to this day. We even have former nazis who have admitted to it. Lots of them. And if it was one vast huge conspiracy then where are all the millions of people lost? How did they die? How did they disappear? If its simply a conspiracy then you should be able to account for them. Did they all move to an invisible island somewhere? There are countless photographs of them. There are countless survivors who lost brothers or sisters or parents or children who can tell you about them down to the fine hair detail. How can we just explain that away?

The only way I can think of is the mind control theory I mentioned earlier. Hypnosis could also explain it. The tatoos could be applied at the same time. These theories are, of course, very very far fetched, yet valid none the less, I think. Like you, I'm also of the oppinion that denying it certainly does make you delusional, but I can't see why questioning it is.

I think you are quite right though. The evidence is overwhelming. It either almost certainly happened or it was a hoax of gargantuan complexity, carried out with breathtaking competence. It's just that some people, including myself, don't think such a feat is beyond the capabilities of the cleverest humans.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

And if it was one vast huge conspiracy then where are all the millions of people lost? How did they die? How did they disappear?

Did they neccessarily die? Maybe they just scattered and changed identities? You'd be surprised how easily 6 million people can be absorbed and vanish in a planet of 6 billion. Plus there's nobody searching for them because they're all believed to be dead. Again, I'm well aware this is a far fetched, but possible none the less.

Let me remind you, I don't believe in any of this, I'm just offering possible reasons why those who deny the holocaust do deny it. The thread 'is' about those who deny the holocaust, isn't it? A thread with nothing but post after post of people declaring holocaust deniers crazy or dellusional without offering possible reasons why they believe what they do. Is that what you want? If so then I'll conform. At least then I can avoid the accusatory censuring of those who get offended on other people's behalf.



EDIT/UPDATE: I don't think questioning is ever wrong. It would be in poor taste if this were a jewish message board, but it isn't, is it (I might be wrong though?). If a subject is upsetting, then that is unfortunate, but the constant search for truth is too important. People should be allowed to question always. It's when you're not allowed to, that's when you should worry.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

Let me remind you, I don't believe in any of this, I'm just offering possible reasons why those who deny the holocaust do deny it. The thread 'is' about those who deny the holocaust, isn't it? A thread with nothing but post after post of people declaring holocaust deniers crazy or dellusional without offering possible reasons why they believe what they do. Is that what you want? If so then I'll conform. At least then I can avoid the accusatory censuring of those who get offended on other people's behalf.

I don't think questioning is ever wrong. It would be in poor taste if this were a jewish message board, but it isn't, is it (I might be wrong though?). People should be allowed to question always. It's when you're not allowed to, that's when you should worry.

nothing wrong with questioning... but your theory is a bit more far-fetched than it needs to be... i offered a more plausible reason why so many wish to deny the holocaust, or things like it... people believe what they wish to believe

whether it be germans and muslims about the holocaust, or christians about the crusades or the KKK, many people have a hard time living with their past, so they justify it in part, or in whole, or even deny it... which leads to much too much concentration on the details, and much too little on the big picture

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

Let me remind you, I don't believe in any of this, I'm just offering possible reasons why those who deny the holocaust do deny it.

That's all right, as far as I'm concerned, and I am the thread starter. I also played devil's advocate once on this board, and also got a small spattering of questions about my own personal character because of it. I suppose the one whose opinion most matters on this is Radagast, however (He is an Israeli and a Jew). I'll leave the decision to him, as to whether or not he thinks devil's advocate on this issue is appropriate. Note: I realize the bold makes me look mad, but I'm not .

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

EDIT/UPDATE: I don't think questioning is ever wrong. It would be in poor taste if this were a jewish message board, but it isn't, is it (I might be wrong though?). If a subject is upsetting, then that is unfortunate, but the constant search for truth is too important. People should be allowed to question always. It's when you're not allowed to, that's when you should worry.

This is a multi-national message board, and though it is not a Jewish board, there are Jews here. I personally don't have any issue with your questioning, and I hope others on this site will also understand that you are simply posing "the other side" on an intellectual level.

Posing the other side should help to increase understanding on this very important issue, for those of us who are interested in a greater understanding. Often, a greater understanding will only confirm the accepted position, and make the belief all the more firmly grounded. This is what it is doing in my case . There seems to be no evidence for the Holocaust being a sham, but there is much for it having really existed. One can always argue that on a stupendously ingenious level of an unbelievable scale and success, this fakery was pulled off, but what's the point in making that argument? If there isn't good reason to believe the Holocaust didn't happen and there is lots of reason for thinking it happened, then we generally (exception=Jesus was God ) accept the evidence.

I very much hope that no one on this site will any more attack your character. I am very, very sorry that you have experienced attack on this thread.

[Rían]

(off-topic - hey Lief, you have some unclaimed Christmas presents over in the rpg Christmas party thread ... )

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(off-topic - hey Lief, you have some unclaimed Christmas presents over in the rpg Christmas party thread ... )

Eh? (Heads off to check it out)

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

The written evidence. How can we really know they weren't faked? Especially in that day and age. If there was suspicion these documents were faked, what effort could have been made to analyze them? Advanced Computer Analysis? Now that we have these advanced tools at our disposal do we make any effort to delve into such a political mine field? No. Even if we wanted to, do you think such documents are lying around by now?

I do agree that it's easy to fake documents. Still this is an evidence added to the other.

The rare interviews of the people interred. How can we know that they weren't influenced by an early equivelant of the mossad agency (or genuine mossad later on)? Perhaps, "shudder", this cover up was the precursor to the CIA MKULTRA project. What did inspire the sudden interest in mind control among the Russians and the Americans in the aftermath of the 2nd World War?

There are many many survivors... Germans and Jews... I don't quite understand: are you suggesting all the hundreds of thousands were somehow influenced by the mossad, which was formed only in 1949? There was nothing equivelant to the mossad before as far as I know.

This seems to me what could be faked easiest of all. Consider the size of Intelligence agenciens, the money that's poured into them, the clout they have, and then the potential propoganda advantages of 'revealing' the German War effort as told by the victors. Population sizes can easily be doctored by allied agiencies..

You're saying that the 7 tons of human ashes could be faked? 600,000 shoes found in Majdanek for instance. Or tons of hair in Auschwitz. Hmmm... I suppose you can again say it's all a fake - the hair was taken but they weren't murdered, so for the shoes... but the ashes?? And what did they use the crematorium for? Or the chambers with evidence for the use of Zyklon B?

Hitler's Ideology. How can we even be sure of the the accuracy of the reports on the most reviled man in history? History is written by the vitors, and information written at the time of his life was geared towards making him a monster to serve the goals of his enemies. I'm sure we've all heard about the incestuous mother-son relationship, the hitler-niece relationship with the urinating on the face sexual perversion, the flatulence, the general physical deficiency.... Isn't it odd how the most hated villain of human history had so many disgusting traits? To be made a charicature? Are our governments, our corporations, really so trustworthy?

What about his book, Mein Kampf? It obviously draws his ideology quite clearly.

Did they neccessarily die? Maybe they just scattered and changed identities? You'd be surprised how easily 6 million people can be absorbed and vanish in a planet of 6 billion. Plus there's nobody searching for them because they're all believed to be dead. Again, I'm well aware this is a far fetched, but possible none the less.

Again, the ashes, crematorium, ideology... pictures, witnesses, hair... and then the documentation and films... I say it's impossible.

I wonder... if it's all a scheme, where are my grandparents families, who died in the holocaust? You suggest they went to hide 60 years?

I do find it rather insulting. I do feel the denial is simply hatred. It has no base. How would you feel if someone suggested you your nation faked the death of millions only to have independence, when all evidence shows the opposite?

That -

What if they realised this before World War 2 began? Anti Semitism was rampant as always. Perhaps they guessed that, unless they acted, the Jewish race was doomed? Then WW2 happened. An opportunity perhaps? Could they have realistically expected to procure the sanctuary of their very own country without the tremendous fuel that would be provided by the world wide outrage that was caused by the holocaust?

Another 'bonus' you could call it, is that, even now, 60 years on, whenever Israel is in trouble, Germany continually hand them freebies because of whatever happened between them and their people

is too far IMO, even if you don't really think so Captain Stern.

Is this thread really about whether there's a proof for the holocaust or not? Or is it to condemn the new 'wave' of people who deny it? (Do I really want to hear the answer? )

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

I think you are quite right though. The evidence is overwhelming. It either almost certainly happened or it was a hoax of gargantuan complexity, carried out with breathtaking competence. It's just that some people, including myself, don't think such a feat is beyond the capabilities of the cleverest humans.

Actually I would say humans are much much too messy and imperfect to pull off even a tiny fraction of such a subterfuge. I mean think about the past few presidents who have had stuff blow up in their faces. Even they couldnt keep this relatively 'minor' stuff quiet (minor in comparison to the Holocaust) so the prospect that such a huge fraud could be successfully perpetrated with so many factors involved and so many sympathetic actors never saying anything about it are so small as to be not even worth analyzing.

[Lotesse]

How the hell this utterly derogatory, ugly-looking, no-purpose-serving, "conspiracy theory / hypothetical devil's advocate game" JOKE of a nasty thread is still open, is so beyond me it boggles the mind. WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD?? To play "what if" games? To pretend a thing like the Holocaust did not happen, for a fun way to pass the friggin' TIME?? This really, really bothers me deeply, this whole thread. It has taken a perniciously, very subtly evil and downright disturbing turn. It was a ridiculous question to even bring up to discuss int the first place, no offense Lief. It has gotten me seriously wondering about some mooters, and NOT in a good way. In an unsettled way.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Radagast the Brown

Is this thread really about whether there's a proof for the holocaust or not? Or is it to condemn the new 'wave' of people who deny it?

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

This thread is designed to discuss Holocaust denial. What evidence is used to back Holocaust denial? Anti-semitism plainly is a major reason people do it, but if there are others, I'd be interested to hear about them.
. . . . .

So as I said, tis thread is designed to discuss Holocaust denial. True or false. Extent of Holocaust denial feeling. People in modern times who deny the Holocaust. Reasons for that.

As this is a "very ugly wave . . . sweeping the Arab world," I thought bringing up a thread about it might be pertinant to the modern situation.

When I originally started this thread, I did have in mind learning about the views and evidence for this absurd conspiracy theory because it is gaining strength in modern times. What Captain Stern has been posting is fully relavent to the previously stated thread topic. I created this thread in the hopes of learning something. Because so many people are turning toward Holocaust denial, I believe it is important that we learn how and what such people think.

Discussing Holocaust denial's extent is another aspect of this thread. Decrying this wave or attacking Holocaust denial is certainly acceptable on this thread, so long as doing this does not turn to personal attacks on Entmooters.

Right from the beginning of the thread, I made discussion and learning the position of Holocaust deniers a part of the thread's purpose. But Radagast, as I said before, I leave to you the decision of whether or not this topic should be discussed. If you think we just shouldn't discuss it here on Entmoot, because you are a Jew and Israeli, I'll respect that and ask that the thread be closed.

[Lotesse]

So, if "so many people" (whoever these people are, it could matter less) are making news about their ideas that Slavery in America never happened, and that actually the Africans wanted to come over to America on their own to seek a new life and better job options, would you open a new thread and encourage people here to entertain THAT idea too? You know what, forget it. This kind of thing, this kind of forum or "topic of discussion" thread is ideal for calling out some mooters true colours and masked, underlying ideas about a thing. For one thing, I definitely do not buy Captain Stern's "devil's advocate" line. I am seeing some brand new true colours in that one, for sure. And you others, who KNOW in their heart that this is not a topic to idly play ridiculous what-if talk games about. Do any of you even REALise how MANY human beings, both dead and alive and TO BE BORN are harmed by this kind of lunacy?

Screw this, I give up. Have fun with your little parlour game. I hope you gain great insight into the "truth" as you see it, and you know who you are.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

If you think we just shouldn't discuss it here on Entmoot, because you are a Jew and Israeli, I'll respect that and ask that the thread be closed.

Oh, THOSE are your terms? One must be Jewish or Israeli in order to have the right to speak out in defiant defense for the rights of dignity and ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of not just the 6 million Jews who perished, but the COUNTLESS other millions of non-Jewish who also died in horrible ways, of the entire family lines, nay, entire villages of human beings who exist no longer due to the Holocaust? You mean, if we're not Jewish or Israeli, then we don't have the right to ask for this b.s. to end? Wow. I wish my ex were around right now; he'd have a thing or two to say. And HE'S Jewish, AND Israeli. But me, I don't count?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

For one thing, I definitely do not buy Captain Stern's "devil's advocate" line. I am seeing some brand new true colours in that one, for sure. And you others, who KNOW in their heart that this is not a topic to idly play ridiculous what-if talk games about. Do any of you even REALise how MANY human beings, both dead and alive and TO BE BORN are harmed by this kind of lunacy?

This is not a parlour game. If I believed that harm was being done to people by discussing this, I would never have started the thread. However, I believe harm is more likely to be done because people refuse to discuss it. Refusal to discuss it means that those who do believe it are confronted with uneducated belief and thus gain an advantage over us. They are able to turn people to their side more easily. Understanding why the lie is a lie is essential to confronting and defeating it.

This plainly is an important issue. Holocaust denial is spreading. I believe firmly in understanding why and how major lies are lies. It is because of Holocaust deniers that the Holocaust was able to go on as long as it did! At the time of World War 2, just about everyone was a Holocaust denier. Very few believed what was happening. This fact made it much easier for the Nazis to destroy Jews.

The Holocaust denial view is an anti-semitic threat to world society. Understanding the truth about it is essential to defeating it.

[Lotesse]

Refusal to "discuss it?" To discuss what, Lief? Do you actually believe that there is something that could happen to cause the ENTIRE thinking, cogent planet to cease believing that World War Two and the extermination project of Hitler against Jews and other peoples ever happened? Is this a big fear of yours, that the whole planet is ignorant and willfully evil enough to pretend like something this ridiculous is true? Are you that worried people might believe that the Holocaust never happened? And if you ARE, well how are said people going to be able to convince the rest of the powers and nations and billions of people worldwide to believe their schtik? Hmm. Maybe you would, if this is such a point of interest and question...

Please, don't even bother answering these questions - they're rhetorical, just like this pointless thread.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Oh, THOSE are your terms? One must be Jewish or Israeli in order to have the right to speak out in defiant defense for the rights of dignity and ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of not just the 6 million Jews who perished, but the COUNTLESS other millions of non-Jewish who also died in horrible ways, of the entire family lines, nay, entire villages of human beings who exist no longer due to the Holocaust? You mean, if we're not Jewish or Israeli, then we don't have the right to ask for this b.s. to end? Wow. I wish my ex were around right now; he'd have a thing or two to say. And HE'S Jewish, AND Israeli. But me, I don't count?

You have the right to speak . . . just as I have the right to disagree. I see you and I as equal. However, Radagast's view carries more weight than either of ours, because he is a Jew.

If the Jews killed in the Holocaust are to continue to be acknowledged and their deaths are to continue to be dignified, then Holocaust denial must be confronted and stopped. If Holocaust denial is to be confronted, it must be understood. If it is to be understood, we have to have a devil's advocate, or at least a stomach for research and learning about unpleasant as well as pleasant topics.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Please, don't even bother answering these questions - they're rhetorical, just liuke this pointless thread.

I'll just answer one of them.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Are you that worried people might believe that the Holocaust never happened?

The BBC News article said that Holocaust denial is spreading through the Arab world. An extremely powerful Islamic political group in Egypt has openly condemned the condemnation of Holocaust denial, and the president of Iran has openly espoused Holocaust denial. These are major events in the political world. Because this IS a major issue, it is worth confronting. If it is to be confronted in an effective manner, it must be understood. Hence this thread. So I do not believe this thread is an attack on what happened to the Jews. It is an attack upon Holocaust denial. It puts ammunition in the cannons of everyone on reading this thread who disagrees with Holocaust denial.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You have the right to speak . . . just as I have the right to disagree. I see you and I as equal. However, Radagast's view carries more weight than either of ours, because he is a Jew.

Then why wasn't it HE who opened this thread? He did not - YOU did. Not only that , but how utterly narrow-minded can a person such as yourself BE, to actually say that one person's view carries more weight than anothers due to their heritage? You just said we were equals. WRONG, you and I are NOT equals. Not in any sense of the word. You are a boy, I am a woman. You are a fundamentalist Christian, I am an atheist. You are a whole LAUNDRY LIST of things that I am not, and VICE VERSA. You are not even close to being my equal.

[Lief Erikson]

I'll just have to leave the equality discussion to another time, another place. I don't want a moderator to close this thread due to internal arguing. I'm certainly willing to discuss it with you over PM if you want, though.