muslims PART 2

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

You mean like the Irish? Germans? Dutch? Italians? Or countless other immigrant waves from the last 300 years? They all received the same kind of hostility in this country when they were new immigrants. Is it wrong for people to live as they want in a democratic country? This more and more is sounding a lot like the cry of the established power saying we cant allow them to influence things because they arent like us and we want everyone to be like us or at least pretend to be! Well I have old news for you: ALL cultures change. You cannot stop it. Its part of the mathematical dynamic of human culture and biology. In 100 years when President Muhammad-Kennedy Abdul Jabbar declares we are in the most important struggle of our country's history because the New Western Bolshevik Christian Thought Terrorists are trying to infiltrate our countries culture network and spread their horrible concepts about fruit worship through the NSA Cerebral Main Frame which controls the culture thought patterns of US residents in all 58 states… *breath*… well anyone north of 130 will be thinking dejavu all over again…

So my advice is embrace as many differences as you can. And try to stay on the board rather then complaining about the next wave. Surfs up!

Oh, it's fine; immigrants are fine...but what do the immigrants bring? Don't tell me who was burning cars in Paris!

We CANNOT have five or six or a million mini-countries within this one: all must abide by the law, even if they do not like them.

I do not mean as in Chinatown mini-countries, but as in France: it is basically a Muslim country now: Muslim majority, large birth rates etc and a weak secular Gov't that blames themselves for being so intolerant! ...

I am not against a muslim practicing his religion in this country, I am not against an immigrant bringing his cultural background. But when it is on the level of waving your original country's flag to protest the country you now live in...you need to get out. It is not a prerequisite that you like the president, that you agree with everything our country stands for. What I am against is a culture allowed that come here to override our established system.

Tons of immigrants pouring into a country is not a melting pot, it is a chamber pot, and it is anarchy.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

What I am against is a culture allowed that come here to override our established system.

But culture, like the earths crust, is constantly growing and consuming itself at the same time. Immigrants WILL (help) change our culture. Theres no getting around that theres no avoiding that. BUT for the most part this change will be like evolution: slow and chaotic and largely unplanned no matter how many fanatics in the world want a caliphate. So relax….

[hectorberlioz]

...and let the slow process of time rot my bones?


SPOCK! ....*thinks of evil plan*

[Nurvingiel]

Interesting article Falagar.

In his lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

So, apparently the Pope is full of crap. It's good to know these things.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Okay, unfortunately I don't have any time at the moment to respond here in depth (though I'd love to), but I just wanted to pick up on a few key bits.

Your post seems very thorough to me!

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I think a major reason why people come to the West is that there's more economic prosperity here. That doesn't mean they all agree with the laws. I don't have any reason to think they disagree with the laws in the US, but I know that in France, there is a very strong feeling of rebelliousness among a large percentage of the immigrants and the poor. This partly comes from France's history, but unfortunately I don't have time to elaborate on that at the moment. It comes from two places: France's history and the immigrants' histories. Many of France's immigrants come from countries that have very, very little tradition of freedom, and often intensely conservative cultures. Hence France, with its banning of headscarves while permitting public nudity, and cracking down on immigrants while denying them and many of the common people justice, is quite a shock. This does come out to being a clash of cultures, but there is a lot more to it than that. I agree with you that France is very hard on its immigrants and treats them badly. Simultaneously, I think the immigrants are a growing threat to France, as Hector says. This is in part because of the way France has treated them, and it's in part because of a strong culture clash that exists between the highly religious Muslims and the highly secular Frenchmen.

I think you make very interesting points here. Unfortunately, my knowledge of current affairs in France has now been exhausted, so I have no further comments.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

This is interesting. I fear immigration of Muslims into Europe and many countries of the West will be a major, major problem in the future, though. Did you know that Europe already is a hotbed of Islamic radicalism? Al'Qaeda often goes to Europe to recruit people to go and fight in Iraq, because radicalism is growing so strongly there.

Hopefully European countries who are experiencing this problem react in a proactive and positive way. Otherwise, they'll just make the situation worse.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Hector is completely correct. France is very, very secular nowadays. Religion is fading. I talked with a Parisien who is not religious herself and she was very open about the fact that religion is dying all over France, and she thinks that the degrading moral culture there is part of the reason so many are turning to Islam. I very, very strongly agree with her about that. The intellectuals of France are already just about all atheist, and those who are religious aren't practicing their religions, in the vast majority. The Muslim immigrants, on the other hand, are very serious about their faith. When they see such utter moral collapse all around them as exists in France, they are naturally shocked. Plus they are discriminated against unfairly by the country's laws, which adds to the rift between this minority and the majority of native Frenchmen.

If religion is fading then... tough. What do you want France to do, make Christianity the state religion?

If Islam appeals to people, I don't see a problem.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

This population change is also happening very strongly in England, because there also, the native British are not producing as many children, and often when they get older they travel away from their home country to other places and by houses out of country. Meanwhile, Muslim immigrants are pouring in and changing the social dynamics of the country permanently.

See above.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I do believe this massive influx of immigrants will be a major problem for Europe in the long run, because they have a different culture than Europeans do (and in some very important ways, a superior culture IMO, though that's beside the point ), and radicalism is spreading very rapidly amongst European Muslims. Also, among most Muslims I believe that there is a real feeling that they are being wronged in various ways by the West. As the tension between the Muslim and Western cultures continues to grow, this could develop into a very, very difficult situation for Western nations.

If Muslims weren't marginalised in Europe (not all countries, but many), then it is quite likely that radicalism would be reduced significantly.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

It already is difficult in France, and Europe in general is also seeing a swift growth in Islamic extremism. Those current trends are part of what I look at when I say I think this situation is going to get much worse. But another significant part of it is what Hector said: our birth rates aren't anywhere near theirs.

Well, are you going to have England require all couples to have or adopt a minimum of two children?

Why not erase the whole "us versus them" attitude and stop caring what religious group produces more offspring?

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

This is also what a Muslim in Iraq said to an Iraq war veteran of my acquaintance. He said to him, "You may win some battles, but in the end, we will outbreed you."

That guy, too, should stop caring about who has more children.

It's stupid, and contributes to the perception of women as baby factories, which really makes me climb the curtains.

[hectorberlioz]

Uh oh....

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Interesting article Falagar.

So, apparently the Pope is full of crap. It's good to know these things.

Oh, it's interesting all right...

If religion is fading then... tough. What do you want France to do, make Christianity the state religion?

Therein lies the problem, France has nothing to fall back on...in making itself an open, liberal state, it opened itself to conquest. You have to realize, when you open your window, do you think only good things are going to blow in?

If Islam appeals to people, I don't see a problem.

I think most French people are freaked out...

If Muslims weren't marginalised in Europe (not all countries, but many), then it is quite likely that radicalism would be reduced significantly.

What the heck does marginalized mean! ...these people can overthrow french government in probably a night!
Just because you give someone a lollipop doesn't mean they'll like you for it.

Well, are you going to have England require all couples to have or adopt a minimum of two children?

It's about the culture and mentality of Europe having radical consequences...

Why not erase the whole "us versus them" attitude and stop caring what religious group produces more offspring?

Because, not everyone is going to stop caring at the same time; if we stop, they just keep on. There is no "stopping" it.

It's stupid, and contributes to the perception of women as baby factories, which really makes me climb the curtains.

*sigh*

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Therein lies the problem, France has nothing to fall back on...in making itself an open, liberal state, it opened itself to conquest. You have to realize, when you open your window, do you think only good things are going to blow in?

Conquest and immigration are two very different things. Not everything about immigration is positive, but the pros of having it outweight the cons, especially when one considers the alternative - isolationism.

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I think most French people are freaked out...

Freaking out is only going to make matters worse IMO.

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

What the heck does marginalized mean! ...these people can overthrow french government in probably a night!

French Muslims cannot overthrow the French government in a night.

Marginalization means, "To relegate or confine to a lower or outer limit or edge, as of social standing." Dictionary.com

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Just because you give someone a lollipop doesn't mean they'll like you for it.

I... agree?

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Because, not everyone is going to stop caring at the same time; if we stop, they just keep on. There is no "stopping" it.

True, but someone has to stop first, so it might as well be you and I.

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

*sigh*

I didn't mean what you said was stupid, I meant the statement that "[Muslims] will outbreed you," is stupid. Sorry if I implied what you said was stupid.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Conquest and immigration are two very different things. Not everything about immigration is positive, but the pros of having it outweight the cons, especially when one considers the alternative - isolationism.

It isn't about isolationism, it's about having people come into your country and make THEIR own country out of it. America is a big country, and during the Civil War time, the south was south, and the north was north. South had it's own culture, it's own systems, it's own form of christianity; and they want to be their own country, and even had their own President, Jefferson Davis. It's not impossible.

Freaking out is only going to make matters worse IMO.

freaking out is an essential part of realizing something...

French Muslims cannot overthrow the French government in a night.

They might be citezens, but they aren't "French" per se, that much is clear...just like George Soros may live here and suck our blood, but he is not an American.

Marginalization means, "To relegate or confine to a lower or outer limit or edge, as of social standing." Dictionary.com

I knew what it meant, but I was indignant about the use...

I... agree?

Liberalism is a master, and whose dog keeps gnawing at it's hand...but the master only smiles... It's part of the inevitable evolutionary course mapped out for us...

True, but someone has to stop first, so it might as well be you and I.

No they don't, and it will never happen. Offspring used to be something to be proud of...maybe the Muslims are the only ones who still believe this?

I didn't mean what you said was stupid, I meant the statement that "[Muslims] will outbreed you," is stupid. Sorry if I implied what you said was stupid.

Actually, that was the sentence I kept writing and rewriting a response to; but I was getting too close to class time

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Interesting article Falagar.

So, apparently the Pope is full of crap. It's good to know these things.

The bit you quoted is, actually, I believe, a widespread Muslim theological opinion.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

The bit you quoted is, actually, I believe, a widespread Muslim theological opinion.

Muslims feel their own religion lacks logic? Quotes please?

[hectorberlioz]

A bit closer to the greeks are they? The volatile gods...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Muslims feel their own religion lacks logic? Quotes please?

Not their religion. They believe, as I understand it, that God is bound by absolutely nothing, including logic.

[Lief Erikson]

I agree with Nurvi; I'd like to see some quotes. Not that I think you're wrong necessarily, but I would like to see the source so I can be sure of this. It would be interesting.

Unfortunately, as I have to get up early tomorrow, I don't have time to respond to Falagar's article yet in the depth I'd need to. So I can't do that tonight.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

If Muslims weren't marginalised in Europe (not all countries, but many), then it is quite likely that radicalism would be reduced significantly.

So runs the theory. Unfortunately, there is very good reason to believe that it isn't true. Radicalism is growing among Muslim youth here in America too, and we aren't suppressive of Muslims. Radicalism is growing basically everywhere. In Indonesia, in the Middle East, in Europe and in Africa and the US . . . it's a rapidly spreading worldwide ideology.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lief Erikson
It already is difficult in France, and Europe in general is also seeing a swift growth in Islamic extremism. Those current trends are part of what I look at when I say I think this situation is going to get much worse. But another significant part of it is what Hector said: our birth rates aren't anywhere near theirs.


Well, are you going to have England require all couples to have or adopt a minimum of two children?

Why not erase the whole "us versus them" attitude and stop caring what religious group produces more offspring?

Because it wouldn't be in the least smart to ignore this aspect of our situation. I view the religion itself, especially in our modern political context, as one of the sources of terrorism and radicalism. And since radicalism is spreading rapidly among Muslim populations, the spread of the Muslim populations also is a cause for concern. I am convinced that a very large percentage of Muslims, even among the mainstream who are currently peaceful, are going to end up turning against the West. This is partly the West's own fault. We certainly are to blame for a fair number of the things that many Muslims accuse us of, and there are actually pretty understandable reasons for the spread of radicalism, in some ways.

Muslim immigrants often have a different culture than we do, a much more rigidly moral culture and one that is not used to the same level of freedom. When people like that gain in numbers, they can use their freedom to become a political lobby, which of course is fine. Except that they could use that position to push restrictions onto our culture that we don't want.

An example of my position from September 2005:

Originally Posted by BBC News

Protests have been held in cities across Canada aimed at stopping Ontario province from adopting sharia-based law to settle Muslim family disputes.

Ontario is considering a report which recommends that it allow sharia religious arbitration for issues such as divorce and child custody.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4215182.stm

The Sharia advocates ended up being ruled against. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4236762.stm

Another example:

Originally Posted by The National Review

In Italy, mainstream Muslim groups have asked for the introduction of Islamic marriages with no legal effects under Italian law, a de facto subtraction of the wedlock from the control of authorities. This request is aimed at creating a situation where two different legal systems regulate the lives of two different groups of citizens within the same state. In European legal history, it would represent a jump back to the Middle Ages, when different laws applied to different ethnicities. In practical terms, it would mean that Italian citizens of Muslim faith would be subtracted from the guarantees that the Italian legal system provides to its citizens. Therefore, while Christian Italian women would have the same rights as Italian men, Muslim Italian women would have very few rights. While a Christian woman would have the right to obtain a divorce simply by filing papers, a Muslim woman would have to go to great lengths to prove ill treatment at the hands of her husband.

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0312030840.asp

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I agree with Nurvi; I'd like to see some quotes. Not that I think you're wrong necessarily, but I would like to see the source so I can be sure of this. It would be interesting.

Gwaimir's post makes me think I misunderstood the quote in the first place.

I thought it meant that Islam wasn't logical, but Gwaimir suggests that Muslims believe that Allah isn't bound by logic. That is not a crap idea, as I kind of nastily put it previously.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

So runs the theory. Unfortunately, there is very good reason to believe that it isn't true. Radicalism is growing among Muslim youth here in America too, and we aren't suppressive of Muslims. Radicalism is growing basically everywhere. In Indonesia, in the Middle East, in Europe and in Africa and the US . . . it's a rapidly spreading worldwide ideology.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a "rapidly spreading worldwide ideology," but I agree that the theory has many more factors than the simple thing I proposed, and it gets a lot messier in practice.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Because it wouldn't be in the least smart to ignore this aspect of our situation. I view the religion itself, especially in our modern political context, as one of the sources of terrorism and radicalism. And since radicalism is spreading rapidly among Muslim populations, the spread of the Muslim populations also is a cause for concern. I am convinced that a very large percentage of Muslims, even among the mainstream who are currently peaceful, are going to end up turning against the West. This is partly the West's own fault. We certainly are to blame for a fair number of the things that many Muslims accuse us of, and there are actually pretty understandable reasons for the spread of radicalism, in some ways.

I still think it would be better to foster dialogue than concern ourselves with religious fertility rates.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Muslim immigrants often have a different culture than we do, a much more rigidly moral culture and one that is not used to the same level of freedom. When people like that gain in numbers, they can use their freedom to become a political lobby, which of course is fine. Except that they could use that position to push restrictions onto our culture that we don't want.

I remember the Ontario Sharia law thing. The Muslim group (or maybe it was just one couple?) who asked for Sharia law definitely had the right to ask. And they did. But they were turned down because it's against the Constitution to have more than one legal system in Canada.

They are also allowed to lobby their MP to ask for the Constitution to be changed, but I doubt they did that.

We don't agree to everything people lobby us for you know.

[Lief Erikson]

Of course they had the right to ask- that's actually part of my point. When you have a much larger population due to more births, you have more political clout, so that right to ask becomes very significant.

The law they wanted imposed would have reduced the freedoms of women. Right now, Muslims in Western countries don't have enough political clout to get Sharia put into law. But with immigration and birth rates among Muslims (which are higher than they are among non-Muslims) climbing, they will end up having larger clout. Then many Muslims might aim for bigger things than implementing Sharia to deprive women of Western rights.

I agree with you that dialogue is important. Yet there is also good reason to be concerned.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a "rapidly spreading worldwide ideology," but I agree that the theory has many more factors than the simple thing I proposed, and it gets a lot messier in practice.

Well even if you wouldn't go so far as to say that, I definitely say that's the case. Islamic radicalism is everywhere. It's definitely worldwide.
In any country where there are Muslims, there are extremists. Radicalism is everywhere, though it is still the minority. Statistics taken on the subject have shown that radicalism is growing in the US, in Indonesia, in just about any country you can name in the Middle East and Europe, and of course in Africa. It's growing rapidly, and it is a worldwide ideology.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Of course they had the right to ask- that's actually part of my point. When you have a much larger population due to more births, you have more political clout, so that right to ask becomes very significant.

I see. But in the Sharia law case, it doesn't matter how much clout you have, because no one has more clout than the Constitution, and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

The law they wanted imposed would have reduced the freedoms of women. Right now, Muslims in Western countries don't have enough political clout to get Sharia put into law. But with immigration and birth rates among Muslims (which are higher than they are among non-Muslims) climbing, they will end up having larger clout. Then many Muslims might aim for bigger things than implementing Sharia to deprive women of Western rights.

Even if somehow Sharia law did get implemented as a secondary (or whatever) judicial system in Canada, the parts that reduced women's rights would be thrown out for violating the Charter.

I just want to point out that we have laws at the very foundation of this country that protect the rights of all Canadians.

You guys have your own Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Do you really think Sharia law could ever get implemented in the States?

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I agree with you that dialogue is important. Yet there is also good reason to be concerned.

Okay, I do agree that we shouldn't ignore real threats. Between the two of us we'll get them all covered.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Well even if you wouldn't go so far as to say that, I definitely say that's the case. Islamic radicalism is everywhere. It's definitely worldwide.
In any country where there are Muslims, there are extremists. Radicalism is everywhere, though it is still the minority. Statistics taken on the subject have shown that radicalism is growing in the US, in Indonesia, in just about any country you can name in the Middle East and Europe, and of course in Africa. It's growing rapidly, and it is a worldwide ideology.

Hm. I'd ask for a study, except I don't have time to read one.

Definitely interesting though. Perhaps even... worrisome.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Even if somehow Sharia law did get implemented as a secondary (or whatever) judicial system in Canada, the parts that reduced women's rights would be thrown out for violating the Charter.

I just want to point out that we have laws at the very foundation of this country that protect the rights of all Canadians.

You guys have your own Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Do you really think Sharia law could ever get implemented in the States?

I'm curious, (it's a mere technicality, but I'm curious still ) on what basis do you think would the Sharia be denied? On the principle of women rights or on the principle of separation of government and church (assuming you have that principle, I'm not familiar with the Canadian law)?

[The Gaffer]

This debate would benefit from some facts about populations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4385768.stm

France has about 8% muslim population, largely drawn from former colonies (Algeria and Tunisia), i.e. NOT the majority. Where do such beliefs come from? Is it because we are ready to believe them?

To me the French experience with the headscarves thing shows that radical secularism is just daft and counter-productive.

The problems are more about poverty, ghettoes and colonialism than radical islam. Deal with the former and you don't have the latter.

[Spock]

One country, where ever, one set of laws for all, whom ever.

OR

Move back to the desert and become more tribal than they are now.

[Draken]

I'd say radical secularism is pretty much what is needed. We're all done with the Middle Ages, thanks all the same, and there's no place now for any religion having any say in public life. European secular societies have been too accomodating: high time we tell those concerned that if they want a society built around their fairy tales they should decamp to whichever hellish dust-bowl such views are tolerated in, be it Colorado or Kandahar.