Muslims

[inked]

since this is a trans-denominational attack grouping of only Christian targets, does it at least suggest intolerance and directed intolerance...

http://www.kfmb.com/stories/story.36751.html

[Grey_Wolf]

Just because a DANISH sleaze mag has shown VERY POOR judgement and printed racist pictures does that mean that all Nordic peoples has done the same.

[HOBBIT]

I think that Grey Wolf is talking about this:

Danish embassy torched over Islam cartoon

Why Muslims are mad over prophet cartoons

Not a huge story over here though. The Iran nuclear program, Coretta Scott King's death, and the Egyptian ferry all seem to be bigger stories.

[Lotesse]

Well, I think it's an interesting story! Tell us more, Grey Wolf - what's going on in Norway?

[Grey_Wolf]

Yeah, perhaps it's small potatoes compared to that. Explain to me then what you call it when an entire religious order is up in arms against something that we would most likely (if aimed at us) not take so seriously.

Ironic pictures on Bush and Blair no one cares about. If the make such pictures of our leaders no one goes up in flames.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Well, I think it's an interesting story! Tell us more, Grey Wolf - what's going on in Norway?

I only know what I've seen on TV and read in the papers. In Sweden there have been demonstrations.

[Earniel]

They were not racist pictures, if I recall correctly, only a cartoon featuring the prophet Mohammed, whereas the Islam forbids depictions of him. Last time I heard not only the Scandinavian countries are targetted, the whole European Union is being generally blamed for it aswell.

A French paper published the same cartoon later on, which eventually led to the sacking of one of the staff over there.

Several Belgian papers reported on the matter yesterday as well, some featuring cartoons of Mohammed of their own artists, saying that the right on satire is a part of the democratic right on freedom of speech. One also wrote that if people are allowed to poke fun at Jezus, Abraham and other religious figures, in the name of equality and tolerance, Mohammed should not be excluded.

I suppose it all goes back to the same old debate about the limits of free speech and how respect and tolerance are tied to it.

[Lotesse]

This is NOT, I repeat NOT small potatoes. The whole "angry Muslim feeling slighted" thing is out of control, all over the world, and it is an eerie portent, I think, of things to come. SO WHAT if a publication published a cartoon, SO friggin' WHAT?!? That is unreal. The whole non-Muslim world should NOT have to feel obliged and frightened into tiptoeing around and pandering to every Muslim around them. How ridiculous. Do non-Muslims require Muslims to tiptoe around THEM? Stupid people. This world gets worse and uglier by the year. I'm glad I don't have kids.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

Yeah, perhaps it's small potatoes compared to that. Explain to me then what you call it when an entire religious order is up in arms against something that we would most likely (if aimed at us) not take so seriously.

Ironic pictures on Bush and Blair no one cares about. If the make such pictures of our leaders no one goes up in flames.

Yes, but this is part of their religion. The Muslim religion says that no pictures shall be made of the Prophet. The publishing of photos is seen as an attack on their religion and an affront to God.

[Lotesse]

Well, it isn't MUSLIMS or MUSLIM - RUN NEWSPAPERS who drew and published the cartoons!!! It's an affront to Catholics and Jews and any other non-Muslim religious adherent when Muslims do & say things about them, and you don't see them burning Muslim flags over it!

[Grey_Wolf]

Then all I have to say is that the Muslims will soon have to go with the flow and get modernized in their thinking. They've had this fanatical religious thinking now for two thousand years. Isn't it about time they grew up?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

I only know what I've seen on TV and read in the papers. In Sweden there have been demonstrations.

And the UK.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I suppose it all goes back to the same old debate about the limits of free speech and how respect and tolerance are tied to it.

I personally don't feel that there was any respect or tolerance in the publishing of those photos. Though there was very likely thoughtlessness and callousness.

[Lotesse]

Word!!! It is HIGH TIME they grew up! This kind of behaviour out of this group only alienates them furthur from the rest of the world who is not Muslim.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I personally don't feel that there was any respect or tolerance in the publishing of those photos. Though there was very likely thoughtlessness and callousness.

Hmm. I wonder how much respect and tolerance there is in the countless caricatures of the Western infidel - sucvh as the Pope, Tony Blair, Bush, etcetera etcetera and so on, that Muslim-run media produces????

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

Then all I have to say is that the Muslims will soon have to go with the flow and get modernized in their thinking. They've had this fanatical religious thinking now for two thousands years. Isn't it about time they grew up?

I'm afraid I agree with Lotesse- my feeling is that it's only going to get worse.

Though I think there's nothing wrong in being fanatical about religion- or about anything that is good and right. Though this zeal can be expressed in bad ways, and it also can be expressed about bad things. Some of the Nazis were zealous.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Well, it isn't MUSLIMS or MUSLIM - RUN NEWSPAPERS who drew and published the cartoons!!! It's an affront to Catholics and Jews and any other non-Muslim religious adherent when Muslims do & say things about them, and you don't see them burning Muslim flags over it!

That's because looking at the history, one can see that Islam has expanded for over a thousand years through violence and conquest. It's "an eye for an eye." Catholics haven't had that same emphasis in their religion, though sometimes they've been that way in their politics.

[Lotesse]

ALL of the Nazis were zealous. It was a political party, you know. Over-zealous, in fact. Nothing like ideology and over-zealous fanaticism to destroy entire countries and tear up human relations and erase lives! Friggin' Muslims. They're not doing themselves any favours acting like this.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Hmm. I wonder how much respect and tolerance there is in the countless caricatures of the Western infidel - sucvh as the Pope, Tony Blair, Bush, etcetera etcetera and so on, that Muslim-run media produces????

I definitely agree. However, Muhammad is in a rather different category because there are commands against portraying an image of him in their religious texts. It's a religious rather than a political matter to them.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I personally don't feel that there was any respect or tolerance in the publishing of those photos. Though there was very likely thoughtlessness and callousness.

And you'll have to forgive me for disagreeing. Danmark is no islamic land, therefore it is not bound by islamic laws to abstain from depicting the prophet Mohammed. One could argue that they could have chosen not to post it out of respect of the muslim community. However when is something disrespectful and when is it not? Mostly this is arbitrary, it all depends on the mind of the one at the receiving end. Cartoons about Jesus may seem disrespectful to one Christian, but another one doesn't make a problem to it. At least one group of Belgian moderate muslims have already declared not to have a problem with the cartoons.

So whether you decide you are insulted by a religious cartoon or not depends on your tolerance to others. If you're a muslim and so you do not drink alcohol, will you demand of everyone at the table, regardless of their religion to drink water, or will you allow those people to drink alcohol while you yourself abstain? I say tolerance does play a role in this debacle.

I won't say I find the printing of the cartoons of very good taste and wisdom. But it's like that quote of (I think) Voltaire: I disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend your right to say it.

[Lotesse]

Yes! Well said, Earniel! I love that Voltaire quote.

[inked]

Do I detect a note of disappointment that Islamics act like Islamics, even against the Nordics?

I am surprised that this group action on for them a moral issue is not wholeheartedly applauded rather than dissed.
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This is SARCASM, ya'll.

What, however did you expect? That the Mohammedhans would play nice because you thought they ought have a sense of humor?