Muslims

[Rían]

But it seemed to me that he was speaking of degrees of goodness and badness being the same. Maybe I misunderstood.

I'd certainly agree that all belief systems have lead to both good and bad things. But I'd also say that some have led to more good than others, and some to more bad than others. Would you agree?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Do you really, truly believe that, when there are belief systems out there that are into things like sacrificing infants? Do you really believe that any one belief system is just as good or bad as another?

i think the major ones are all the same, more or less... some are more passive in nature (buddhism), some more aggressive (islam), and some in the middle (christianity)... obviously there are radical subsets of all those religions, the branch davidians in waco were christian, the al qaeda muslim, some of the violent in tibet buddhists... but the religions, in and of themselves do not have to be violent... one does not have to look far to find thousands who interpret all three of those belief systems in much more peaceful terms

the source of the problem mostly lies in what one might call "absolute belief" in one's particular system... only those who believe their system must be the true reality of the world is going to sacrifice their own life for a cause they think is just... a casual believer who is not even sure there is an afterlife is very unlikely to toss this life aside

this does not mean that "absolute believers" of any of these systems (or others) have to be fanatical, it just means that they have the ability to become fanatical, especially when they live in an extreme and violent environment

if muhammed, for example, had never existed, and all of the middle east was christian other than the jewish presence in israel, i highly doubt the situation would be terribly different if all the other factors remained the same: authoritarian governments, extreme social inequality, a very violent history, massive natural resources controlled by a small proportion of the population, etc.

focusing on the muslim belief itself is a mistake, as well as being a pointless endeavor, because you are much more likely to be able to change any one of the problems i listed than to change someone's belief system... even if you think that belief system itself is part of the problem

[Spock]

...You watch out for them Double Muslims...

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

But it seemed to me that he was speaking of degrees of goodness and badness being the same. Maybe I misunderstood.

I'd certainly agree that all belief systems have lead to both good and bad things. But I'd also say that some have led to more good than others, and some to more bad than others. Would you agree?

I agree. (I know you weren't talking to me, but this made me thing of something else.)

I think that we can't say which has done more good or bad between Christianity and Islam because we're not looking at it historically. (I know you weren't saying that, this is my thought on the subject.)

I also don't think we need to answer that question. What's important that those who are doing good, and there are a lot of people, continue to do so. We don't need to keep score.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

if muhammed, for example, had never existed, and all of the middle east was christian other than the jewish presence in israel, i highly doubt the situation would be terribly different if all the other factors remained the same: authoritarian governments, extreme social inequality, a very violent history, massive natural resources controlled by a small proportion of the population, etc.

focusing on the muslim belief itself is a mistake, as well as being a pointless endeavor, because you are much more likely to be able to change any one of the problems i listed than to change someone's belief system... even if you think that belief system itself is part of the problem

I completely agree! That's what I was trying to say earlier, but it just didn't come across very well.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

We don't need to keep score.

*echos of pre-Nazi Germany...*

I know what you're saying, but I don't think not watching and analyzing things is right, either...

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

*echos of pre-Nazi Germany...*

I know what you're saying, but I don't think not watching and analyzing things is right, either...

I see what you're saying. I just meant "keep score" in the most literal sense. I don't think we shouldn't evaluate the world around us and pay attention to what's going on.

[Lotesse]

Everyone focuses on the extremist offshoot sects of Muslims who do the suicide bombings to make their point, but does anyone recall (o.k., not LITerally, but) the Crusades, and Spanish Inquisition, and all the other countless crimes against humanity that were committed throughout history by - you guessed it, CHRISTIANS. Jews aren't always fair, either. So are we gonna sit in self-important ivory towers and point fingers at one particular religious group and say "oh, we're better than them because A., B. and C.?" Give me a break. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Personally, I dislike organised religion as a rule, but I respect those who hold beliefs for the person or people that they ARE, with or without some particular dogma they might adhere to.

[Spock]

hmm, The Crusades were partly a Christian world response to Muslim attacks/advances and take over.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Spock

hmm, The Crusades were partly a Christian world response to Muslim attacks/advances and take over.

as i've said before, it is very easy to justify just about anything from your own pov

[Jonathan]

The Christians during the Middle Ages were quite agressive too. And think of the battles that were faught between Catholics and Protestants.
Both Christianity and Islam have a bloody history.

[Spock]

yeah, and the athiests reap the bounty.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Spock

yeah, and the athiests reap the bounty.

What exactly do you mean by that Spock? I don't always understand your posts, so I hope you're not saying what I think you're saying.

This statement, to me, says that somehow atheists benefit from violence between two groups of Christians.

[Spock]

yep. no investment in beliefs nor customs nor tradition as the "established religions" so unbelievers of anything do benefit.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Spock

yep. no investment in beliefs nor customs nor tradition as the "established religions" so unbelievers of anything do benefit.

nah, we just spend our time on the important stuff

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Spock

yep. no investment in beliefs nor customs nor tradition as the "established religions" so unbelievers of anything do benefit.

That is utter bollocks. I can't believe you think atheists benefit from violence. From people dying!
Firstly, (though the violence in Northern Ireland* does not even cause this) the disestablishment of organised religion would have a neutral effect on atheists, as they are not members of any religion. What possible benefit would an atheist gain? Atheists generally don't want anything bad to happen to religions, they merely don't share their beliefs.
Secondly, it is completely insensitive and offensive to suggest that atheists would benefit from violence. (Though Brownie seems much less offended than I am. )


*Jonathan's comment of "And think of the battles that were faught between Catholics and Protestants" made me think of the ongoing violence in Northern Ireland.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Spock

yep. no investment in beliefs nor customs nor tradition as the "established religions" so unbelievers of anything do benefit.

Woah, aren't customs or traditions also included in culture, not just what you believe in? And I'm far off-topic with this post

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

That is utter bollocks. I can't believe you think atheists benefit from violence. From people dying!

Sorry but I can't believe the things you believe either but you don't see me cursing you AND YOU SHOULDN'T TO ME EITHER.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Secondly, it is completely insensitive and offensive to suggest that atheists would benefit from violence.

I may be but then you are only content with those who agree with you and who are "sensitive to your needs". Sorry, not me. When religious factions fight, those out of the arena are generally not concerned with the outcome, just what they can get and how their lifestyle is impacted by the fighting.

I'd put in mad faces but I had to use Netscape to get to the Moot tonight.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Spock

Sorry but I can't believe the things you believe either but you don't see me cursing you AND YOU SHOULDN'T TO ME EITHER.

It was the idea, and not you personally, that I was cursing at. (Though I realize that this isn't always immediately obvious.)

Originally Posted by Spock

I may be but then you are only content with those who agree with you and who are "sensitive to your needs".

That is untrue; I am not only content with those who are "sensitive to my needs". (Unless by "sensitive to my needs" you mean "not accusing atheists of benefiting from violence".) Maybe we'll come to understand each other better once we've posted together more.

Originally Posted by Spock

Sorry, not me. When religious factions fight, those out of the arena are generally not concerned with the outcome, just what they can get and how their lifestyle is impacted by the fighting.

I'd put in mad faces but I had to use Netscape to get to the Moot tonight.

I fail to see how this supports your earlier statement that atheists "reap the bounty" of violence between two Christian groups. I honestly have no idea why you think this.
I think it's much more likely that people not directly involved in the fighting will have compassion for those impacted, or at the very least, not have an opinion. Only in a few callous people do I imagine they actually feel benefited.
I do agree though, that people will be concerned about the impact of the violence on their own lives.

[Hasty Ent]

never mind

[Insidious Rex]

Just for the record: atheists tend to get killed when large religions collide. There is no correlation whatsoever between atheists getting rich and Christians (or Muslims) dieing. Religious wars hurt everybody.