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#21 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Plausible??? |
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#22 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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The ring could appearantly make itself lighter and heavier, or larger and smaller, to fit any bearer. That's how it slipped off- simply becoming too large to fit while they weren't noticing.
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#23 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 01-15-2004 at 06:45 PM. |
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#24 | |
High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
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Quote:
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen ![]() |
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#25 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
In the Council of Elrond... Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#26 |
Orodruin's Flame
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kananaskis, AB
Posts: 1,194
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lol i just noticed someone has there own credit for speaking as the ring in the film, wonder if that got there break into stardom? lol
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Council of Entmoot - Foreign Affairs Minister - 2004-05 Visit the Ye Olde Avatar Shop and The New One Dont tell me what I cannot do Two men are on a Island, they both see a "monster", one sees a bright light, and the other sees a dark cloud My name bares no reference to the music artist. |
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#27 | |
High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen ![]() |
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#28 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
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I want to say thanks to all those who posted here.
My take on the speaking Ring is that it isn't the Ring that speaks. While I have many reasons for thinking thus, here are a few: 1) Nowhere does Tolkien prepare us to hear the Ring speak. As a good story teller, when inanimate objects speak, Tolkien either forshadows it, or explains it after the fact. Here he niether forshadoes nor explains....quite an oversight if the Ring is speaking. Further, in all the discussions of the Ring, and indeed of Rings of Power generally, speech is never mentioned as one of its strange powers. 2) the argument of the Ring's will is overblown....did the Ring truly sit down one day, stretch its gold a bit, and think, "You know, I'm tired of this Gollum chap, time to move on"? No, rather it "left" Gollum because its Master was calling it...i. e. it answered a summons much as a magnet answers when summoned by a stronger magnet. It doesn't have sentience. 3) I can not imagine a situation in which someone who is a slave to the Ring as Gollum is would deliberately disobey the Ring. If the Ring commanded Gollum to "Begone" I would expect that Gollum would obey, regardless of his desire. But if it is the Ring speaking than Gollum has disobeyed the thing that he is enslaved to, and that goes against everything Tolkien wrote about the Ring and Gollum. 4) Sam sees this with "other vision" So unless you believe that Frodo dropped trou and donned a white, shining robe and grew several inches suddenly and then shrank back down , it would seem to me that having the Ring speak means believing these things about Frodo. If the reader doesn't believe that Frodo suddenly changed clothes, but rather that Sam is seeing with ![]() While I have many more reasons, those are the key ones. Again, many thanks to all who responded. Forkbeard |
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#29 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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What you say about the Ring not having sentience makes sense Forkbeard. When it left Gollum and went to Bilbo, it began a series of events that ultimately led to its destruction. I think a power greater than Sauron or the Ring had a hand in that, which Gandalf hints at in FotR.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#30 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
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But Gandalf's words to Frodo in 'The shadow of the past' clearly suggest that the Ring do have a sentience:
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 01-22-2004 at 02:45 PM. |
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#31 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
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Hi Atanis,
No, I disagree that those passages indicate sentience. Sentience involves self awareness and the ability to think. Not even in Gandalf's words does he indicate that the ring is self aware or can plan things out. As stated, the Ring "wants" to get back to Sauron. Does this indicate desire or nature? If desure, then the Ring is in some sentient, but if nature, then it isn't. That is to say, Sauron created the Ring, he transferred a good deal of himself and his power into the Ring. Thus, the Ring's nature is Sauron, like wants to join with like. Further, the moments when the Ring "acts" are interesting in this regard: the first time that Isildure WEARS the Ring, not just carries it, is at Gladden Fields--the removal from Sauron is still very recent, and the first time someone else trys to use it, and does not Master it, it slips off. Think of it this way: Sauron is a magnet, the Ring is a chink off the original magnet, and the magentic pull of Sauron pulls the Ring to itself at every opportunity. The time when that pull is strongest is when the bearer of the Ring uses it. Thus Isildure lost the Ring and his life the first he uses it. Gollum lost the Ring while using it when Sauron's magnetic pull reasserts itself in Mirkwood. This isn't sentience, it is simply two parts of a whole drawing together, like a magnet. Sauron is sentient, there is no real indication that the Ring is. And so to Gandalf's statements. Does Gandalf really mean to indicate that the Ring made decisions and made plans? It is in the nature of the Ring to protect itself. But sharks have that instinct too, but they are not sentient. It is in the nature of the Ring to return to Sauron: salmon return every year to their place of birth, but are not sentient. It is in the nature of the Ring to tempt and to twist human intent with its promise of power, but the Presidency does this as well, and the Presidency is not sentient itself. The current President may or may not be, but that's a different issue. Thus, if we take Gandalf's words literally, there is still no need to attribute to the Ring sentience, self awareness, and deliberate planning. Forkbeard |
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#32 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
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Hi Forkbeard!
![]() Perhaps I should not have used the word 'sentience', I may have put a wrong meaning into it, due to my limited knowledge of English. Let me try to elaborate. I agree with what you say about Sauron and how he put his power into the Ring, and the attraction between those two, and the nature of the Ring. But I do also think that the Ring had capability to act by itself, not 'make plans' maybe, but certainly act without getting any clear 'orders' from its master, in order to reach its aim, to get back to Sauron. Gandalf says "A Ring of Power looks after itself", and "the Ring itself decided things", these are stronger statements than "The Ring was trying to get back to its master". I agree of course that the will of the Ring had its source in Sauron, but the Ring was still a separate entity, on its own.
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#33 |
High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
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I agree with Artanis and that is how I have always read into things as well...
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen ![]() |
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#34 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,215
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Originally posted by Artanis
I agree of course that the will of the Ring had its source in Sauron, but the Ring was still a seperate entity, on its own. ________________________________ Hello. Here's a slight bit of information that may be relevant to Artanis's view. In the somewhat dated the complete guide to Middle-earth, Robert Foster says" "Because of its great evil power, the Ring has curious properties. It possessed a certain amount of self-determination. Gandalf, who had wisdom in such matters, claimed that Bilbo found the Ring because it wanted to be found in order to be reunited with Sauron". Perhaps the Ring's "sentience" is a property similar to the way I believe it has been speculated in some threads that dragons and such may have been imbued with some of Morgoth's essence to make them active. Is it that much of a stretch to imagine some of Sauron's power (in the Ring) acting autonomously. From "Letters" #131: "Even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself", this quote seems to indicate a subsidiary power of Sauron in the Ring acting essentially intelligently on its own, but to the purpose of reuniting with Sauron. Speculative, of course.
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#35 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Lonely Mountain
Posts: 161
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"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs |
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#36 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Hobbiton
Posts: 739
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Re: The Ring Speaks?
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#37 | |
Mootis per forum
Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Spain
Posts: 61,439
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The power of the ring is a power over mind and will. Here it is putting an image into Sam's mind and also it is forcing the will of Frodo to behave according to that image: speaking and acting as Lord of the Ring. The ring has not a physical power. I'm not sure, but I think that when "it seems" to grow and to shrink may be due to the perception (influenced in the mind by the ring) of those that are seing it. When it slips of a finger, may be also due to its power over the mind. Everyone that has worn a ring knows that some days it may slip easier than others because the fingers do grow and shrink. I suppose that is a reaction to weather or something like that, but I think that that reaction may be governed by our mind, and so the ring would have a chance to slip if our mind is not strong enough to control it.
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#38 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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Also, the Orc in the tower of Cirith Ungol thought Sam was a huge Elf lord. This was partly fueled by rumours about an Elf lord who stabbed Shelob, and the fact that the orc was already afraid. The Ring enhanced these fears.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#39 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
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#40 |
Enting
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 75
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I'm thinking it was Frodo speaking, with the Ring enhancing his voice. The Ring, if it did have vocal cords, would certainly not have made such a bizzare announcement.
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