Why didnt Frodo..... - Page 2

ryttu3k · 01-07-2004, 11:31 PM

Okay, let's say that an eagle would carry Frodo. What if it was several eagles - different shifts, so to speak? You'd get greater speed due to less fatigue, and the tempting nature of the ring would be reduced.

Also, it would be a lot quicker by the eagle flies as opposed to as the Hobbit walks. Since it took less time, would Frodo really feel the pull of the ring the same?

And if he didn't want to let go of the ring, I s'pose the eagle could just drop him in, like Beor said ^_^

...But if Frodo DID get to Mordor by eagle, a lot of events that should have happened, wouldn't have. Hmmm.

LOTR2004 · 01-08-2004, 04:32 AM

I completely agree - I always thought that
It would have been a whole lot easier!

Tuor of Gondolin · 01-08-2004, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by LOTR2004
Eagles
I completely agree - I always thought that
It would have been a whole lot easier!
________________________________

At first I considered that, but, aside from making a rather short story

, check out Azalea's very good reasoning above. Also, it would seem to have been quite possible that Sauron had several forms of early warning systems, general lookouts, scouts, guards, etc. all around the Ered Lithui and Ephel Duath with some nazgul probably minutes or seconds away. Sort of like the U.S. cold war nuclear attack early warning stations in northern Canada. And Sauron's constant searching, with or without the palantir (no sleepy time, I think), probably routinely "swept" the areas, land and air, around Mordor.
Still, it always did seem odd that there wasn't even a token guard on Mount Doom.

Twista · 01-08-2004, 02:35 PM

there you go then.... on an average dicision, the eagles should have done it lol.

Thorin II · 01-08-2004, 06:25 PM

I would think it'd be impossible to get the Ring to the Crack of Doom if Sauron had any kind of warning (and if an eagle or several eagles helped, I think they'd be easy to spot). Once he knew they were coming, he could defend Mount Doom with all matter of evil nasties. I imagine he could seal off the Crack of Doom, too. The whole point is that Sauron never considered that the free peoples would try to destroy the Ring; in order for it to work, secrecy was essential.

**Nurvingiel** · 01-08-2004, 09:57 PM

The reason Sam and Frodo were able to reach Mount Doom (which didn't even have a guard) was because Sauron didn't expect anyone to destroy it. If he was to spot the Eagle, he might realize what was going on. Gandalf said if he concentrated his will on defending Mordor and finding the Ring, they wouldn't have had a chance.

Twista · 01-09-2004, 12:06 PM

Surely it must have been somewhere on his mind... He obviously saw them and heard of them moving closer and closer to Mordor. AND he knew, they wouldnt be able to weild its power against him, so what did he acually think they were going to use it for?

***Valandil*** · 01-09-2004, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twista
Surely it must have been somewhere on his mind... He obviously saw them and heard of them moving closer and closer to Mordor. AND he knew, they wouldnt be able to weild its power against him, so what did he acually think they were going to use it for?

I think he thought, by that time, that Aragorn, or Gandalf, or a great Elven Lord or some other great leader actually held the Ring and was going to wield it in combat against him. I think he feared for the outcome there - that if the one wielding the Ring was of sufficient will power, they might be able to sway his own armies against him...

Thorin II · 01-09-2004, 12:31 PM

Valandil - that was my understanding, too. I think that's a big part of why Sauron feared Aragorn; Sauron knew Aragorn was strong enough to challenge him with the Ring. Incidentally, you have the coolest avatar I've seen so far...

***Valandil*** · 01-09-2004, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thorin II
Valandil - ... Incidentally, you have the coolest avatar I've seen so far...

Thanks Thorin! I'm not so gifted though... it was a 'Christmas present' from 'brownjenkins'... he said they were slow that time of year, and I was without an avatar...

(thanks again, bj!)

Dúnedain · 01-09-2004, 01:07 PM

Yes exactly, Sauron did fear that Aragorn could wield it and use the Ring against him, especially after they struggled with one another in the Palantir and knowing now for sure that Aragorn was Isildur's Heir. It also helped the cause the Pippin looked into the palantir previously, making it seem like he was the Ringbearer at the time...

brownjenkins · 01-09-2004, 02:38 PM

you're welcome again Valandil

***azalea*** · 01-09-2004, 03:46 PM

I think the argument regarding the eagles being too easily spotted in Mordor is valid, but I would still stress that it goes beyond that. Okay, if not to Mt. Doom, how about just to Lothlorien? Or at least just over Caradhras? Their help would have saved a lot of blood and sweat, along with avoiding that pesky Balrog, but apparently it just wasn't an option, for reasons already stated.

Twista · 01-09-2004, 08:31 PM

13 months to Mordor was it? And what the hobbits walk at 3mph?

So thats 13 x 30 x 24 = 9360 hours

Take off 3360 for sleeping etc?

6000 hours.... so its 2000 miles to Mordor?

What speed wud u say an eagle flys at?

Elf Girl · 01-09-2004, 09:28 PM

I think Sauron did not guard Mt. Doom because the thougt that anyone would want to destroy something that could give them so much power was entirely foreign to his nature. He assumed they would go to Minas Tirith, and Aragorn, probably, or Gandalf, would become Ringlord. If he was in their position, he would certainly have claimed it and become powerful. He can't even concieve the idea that they would want to destroy so much power.
From RotK:

Quote:

'...We must make ourselves the bait, though his jaws should close on us. He will take that bait, in hope and in greed, for he will think that in such rashness he sees the pride of the new Ringlord: and he will say "So! he pushes out his neck too soon and too far. Let him come on, and behold I will have him in a trap from which he cannot escape. There I will crush him, and what he has taken in his insolence shall be mine again for ever."...'

It never crossed Sauron's mind that they would try to destroy it. He thought they were going to Minas Tirith.

Twista · 01-09-2004, 09:34 PM

Still, you'd think he'd have at least 1 orc garrasoned there, out of the 1000's he had availible to him...

Thorin II · 01-10-2004, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
it was a 'Christmas present' from 'brownjenkins'...

A 'Christmas present' you say? Does that mean you actually strangled brownjenkins and took it by force? Hmm...

ryttu3k · 01-10-2004, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thorin II
A 'Christmas present' you say? Does that mean you actually strangled brownjenkins and took it by force? Hmm...

*snickers*

Okay, back on topic, so what if the eagle carried Frodo to Minas Tirith? That way, Sauron would still be convinced that the city was its destination, and might not notice the halfling that slipped out in the night...

But that brings new problems - Minas Tirith might have been attacked a lot sooner, plus if certain people knew how close the ring was... well...

Wayfarer · 01-10-2004, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Still, you'd think he'd have at least 1 orc garrasoned there, out of the 1000's he had availible to him...

Allright, let's think about this 'bright idea' you all have. Okay, so I'm an evil dark lord who thinks nothing of sending his troops into a battle where they will be slaughtered wholesale, but do you really think I'm going to be stupid enough to station my people on or anywhere near an active volcano?

There was a guard on the plateau of Gorgoroth. Remember the huge encampment that Sam and Frodo saw along their way? That was it. And they were as close as they were going to be with any chance of safety in the case of an eruption (even a relatively minor one, let alone one like what happened when the ring went into the fire.)

Tuor of Gondolin · 01-10-2004, 11:12 AM

"Allright, let's think about this 'bright idea' you all have. Okay, so I'm an evil dark lord who thinks nothing of sending his troops into a battle where they will be slaughtered wholesale, but do you really think I'm going to be stupid enough to station my people on or anywhere near an active volcano?"
_________________________________

An interesting argument, but do you really think Sauron would give a bleep if he lost a dozen or so orcsies? Hey, this is a guy who gave Shelob an orc snack every now and then.

01-08-2004, 04:32 AM	#22
LOTR2004 Sapling Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1	Eagles I completely agree - I always thought that It would have been a whole lot easier!

01-08-2004, 12:26 PM	#23
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Originally posted by LOTR2004 Eagles I completely agree - I always thought that It would have been a whole lot easier! ________________________________ At first I considered that, but, aside from making a rather short story, check out Azalea's very good reasoning above. Also, it would seem to have been quite possible that Sauron had several forms of early warning systems, general lookouts, scouts, guards, etc. all around the Ered Lithui and Ephel Duath with some nazgul probably minutes or seconds away. Sort of like the U.S. cold war nuclear attack early warning stations in northern Canada. And Sauron's constant searching, with or without the palantir (no sleepy time, I think), probably routinely "swept" the areas, land and air, around Mordor. Still, it always did seem odd that there wasn't even a token guard on Mount Doom. __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva!

01-08-2004, 02:35 PM	#24
Twista Orodruin's Flame Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kananaskis, AB Posts: 1,194	there you go then.... on an average dicision, the eagles should have done it lol. __________________ Council of Entmoot - Foreign Affairs Minister - 2004-05 Visit the Ye Olde Avatar Shop and The New One Dont tell me what I cannot do Two men are on a Island, they both see a "monster", one sees a bright light, and the other sees a dark cloud My name bares no reference to the music artist.

01-08-2004, 06:25 PM	#25
Thorin II Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 161	I would think it'd be impossible to get the Ring to the Crack of Doom if Sauron had any kind of warning (and if an eagle or several eagles helped, I think they'd be easy to spot). Once he knew they were coming, he could defend Mount Doom with all matter of evil nasties. I imagine he could seal off the Crack of Doom, too. The whole point is that Sauron never considered that the free peoples would try to destroy the Ring; in order for it to work, secrecy was essential. __________________ "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs

01-09-2004, 12:06 PM	#27
Twista Orodruin's Flame Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kananaskis, AB Posts: 1,194	Surely it must have been somewhere on his mind... He obviously saw them and heard of them moving closer and closer to Mordor. AND he knew, they wouldnt be able to weild its power against him, so what did he acually think they were going to use it for? __________________ Council of Entmoot - Foreign Affairs Minister - 2004-05 Visit the Ye Olde Avatar Shop and The New One Dont tell me what I cannot do Two men are on a Island, they both see a "monster", one sees a bright light, and the other sees a dark cloud My name bares no reference to the music artist.

01-07-2004, 11:31 PM	#21
ryttu3k Enting Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 61	Okay, let's say that an eagle would carry Frodo. What if it was several eagles - different shifts, so to speak? You'd get greater speed due to less fatigue, and the tempting nature of the ring would be reduced. Also, it would be a lot quicker by the eagle flies as opposed to as the Hobbit walks. Since it took less time, would Frodo really feel the pull of the ring the same? And if he didn't want to let go of the ring, I s'pose the eagle could just drop him in, like Beor said ^_^ ...But if Frodo DID get to Mordor by eagle, a lot of events that should have happened, wouldn't have. Hmmm.

01-09-2004, 12:31 PM	#29
Thorin II Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 161	Valandil - that was my understanding, too. I think that's a big part of why Sauron feared Aragorn; Sauron knew Aragorn was strong enough to challenge him with the Ring. Incidentally, you have the coolest avatar I've seen so far... __________________ "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs

01-09-2004, 01:07 PM	#31
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Yes exactly, Sauron did fear that Aragorn could wield it and use the Ring against him, especially after they struggled with one another in the Palantir and knowing now for sure that Aragorn was Isildur's Heir. It also helped the cause the Pippin looked into the palantir previously, making it seem like he was the Ringbearer at the time... __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

01-09-2004, 02:38 PM	#32
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	you're welcome again Valandil __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

01-09-2004, 03:46 PM	#33
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I think the argument regarding the eagles being too easily spotted in Mordor is valid, but I would still stress that it goes beyond that. Okay, if not to Mt. Doom, how about just to Lothlorien? Or at least just over Caradhras? Their help would have saved a lot of blood and sweat, along with avoiding that pesky Balrog, but apparently it just wasn't an option, for reasons already stated.

01-09-2004, 08:31 PM	#34
Twista Orodruin's Flame Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kananaskis, AB Posts: 1,194	13 months to Mordor was it? And what the hobbits walk at 3mph? So thats 13 x 30 x 24 = 9360 hours Take off 3360 for sleeping etc? 6000 hours.... so its 2000 miles to Mordor? What speed wud u say an eagle flys at? __________________ Council of Entmoot - Foreign Affairs Minister - 2004-05 Visit the Ye Olde Avatar Shop and The New One Dont tell me what I cannot do Two men are on a Island, they both see a "monster", one sees a bright light, and the other sees a dark cloud My name bares no reference to the music artist.

01-09-2004, 09:34 PM	#36
Twista Orodruin's Flame Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kananaskis, AB Posts: 1,194	Still, you'd think he'd have at least 1 orc garrasoned there, out of the 1000's he had availible to him... __________________ Council of Entmoot - Foreign Affairs Minister - 2004-05 Visit the Ye Olde Avatar Shop and The New One Dont tell me what I cannot do Two men are on a Island, they both see a "monster", one sees a bright light, and the other sees a dark cloud My name bares no reference to the music artist.

01-10-2004, 11:12 AM	#40
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	"Allright, let's think about this 'bright idea' you all have. Okay, so I'm an evil dark lord who thinks nothing of sending his troops into a battle where they will be slaughtered wholesale, but do you really think I'm going to be stupid enough to station my people on or anywhere near an active volcano?" _________________________________ An interesting argument, but do you really think Sauron would give a bleep if he lost a dozen or so orcsies? Hey, this is a guy who gave Shelob an orc snack every now and then. __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 01-10-2004 at 11:15 AM.

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