Oldest living Elf in ME... - Page 2

Ruinel · 01-05-2004, 04:08 PM

"Elmo"?

eh?

Lefty Scaevola · 01-05-2004, 07:05 PM

Elmo: younger brother of Elwe & Olwe
. Father of Galadhon
. grandfather of Galathil & Celeborn
. great Grandfather of Nimloth (the wife of Dior)

Attalus · 01-05-2004, 07:49 PM

Well, I haven't seen anything to shake my conviction that CÃ*rdan was the oldest living Elf in Middle-earth, though I do agree with Wayfarer that Galadriel was the oldest Noldo.

DÃºnedain · 01-05-2004, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Elmo: younger brother of Elwe & Olwe
. Father of Galadhon
. grandfather of Galathil & Celeborn
. great Grandfather of Nimloth (the wife of Dior)

Thank you for corroborating my info

Wayfarer · 01-06-2004, 01:59 PM

Ah. A younger younger brother. I see.

***RÃan*** · 01-06-2004, 04:12 PM

yes, you know- those irritating creations ... (at least acc'd to my older son)

Thorin II · 01-07-2004, 01:29 AM

I'm under the impression Cirdan is the oldest in ME.

Related to that, is anyone else puzzled by Tolkien's description of Cirdan as having a long beard? Since when do Elves, even really old ones, have beards?

Wayfarer · 01-07-2004, 12:38 PM

Well, I've never been much for the idea that elves were always babyfaced. I think that it's likely that elves /did/ grow beards, but that they started growing much later than in humans. It's also possible (and likely) that whether or not an elf had a beard was a voluntary decision on their part. They were lords of their own body, after all.

Turgon_Turambar · 01-07-2004, 02:15 PM

does anyway know how old cirdan was by the time he left ME not an exact age like 10,345 years but roughly. beginning of 1st age to end of 3rd how many years is that?

Ruinel · 01-07-2004, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Elmo: younger brother of Elwe & Olwe
. Father of Galadhon
. grandfather of Galathil & Celeborn
. great Grandfather of Nimloth (the wife of Dior)

*checks The Sil* ... nothing here
*checks HoMEXI*... ah... here it is... page 350...

Quote:

...This table gives the descendants of ElwÃ« (Thingol) and his younger brother Elmo, whom it is said that he was "beloved of ElwÃ« with whom he remained." On one side of the table (descendents from ElwÃ«) the wife of Dior Eluchil (Thingol's heir) is Nimloth "sister of Celeborn." Similarly on the other side, Elmo's son is GalaÃ°on, and GalaÃ°on had two sons, Galathil and Celeborn 'prince of Doriath', and a daughter Nimloth, wife of Dior Eluchil. But on the same table Nimloth wife of Dior also appears as the daughter of Galathil (thus in the first case she was the second cousin of Dior, and in the latter the third cousin of Elwing). It is clear from rough pencillings on this page that my father was uncertain about this, and it looks as if Nimloth as niece of Celeborn was his second thought. I referred to this geneology in Unfinished Tales, p. 233, but did not mention the alternative placing of Nimloth as Celeborn's sister.

Hmmm... I'd forgotten that bit.

brownjenkins · 01-07-2004, 02:56 PM

since the rising of the sun and moon it is somewhere around 7,000 years till the grey havens departure... though the length of these years during the 600 of the first age is somewhat disputed, due to changes in the courses of the sun and the moon

before the sun and moon it is even more difficult... some put the time of the elves before the rise of the sun and moon on the order of 4,500 years (see Sil Chronology, based upon info from HoME morgoth's ring)

this would put Cirdan at about 11,500, if i did my math right

Turgon_Turambar · 01-08-2004, 12:25 PM

Thats pretty damn old. Saurons quite old aswell.

Arien the Maia · 01-08-2004, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
Thats pretty damn old. Saurons quite old aswell.

WEll since Sauron's a Maia, he's the oldest thing on Middle Earth durng the Second and third Ages with the exception of the Wizards since they're Maias too

Radagast The Brown · 01-08-2004, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
WEll since Sauron's a Maia, he's the oldest thing on Middle Earth durng the Second and third Ages with the exception of the Wizards since they're Maias too

Quote:

Originally said by Gandalf:

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Arien the Maia · 01-08-2004, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Originally said by Gandalf:

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

but how can things in Middle Earth be older than any of the Ainur who were created before Arda?

Radagast The Brown · 01-08-2004, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
but how can things in Middle Earth be older than any of the Ainur who were created before Arda?

I don't know, I just quoted it. Gandalf should know though, he is a maia imself after all.

Thorin II · 01-10-2004, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
but how can things in Middle Earth be older than any of the Ainur who were created before Arda?

Not to open a classic Tolkien debate, but this could be where Tom Bombadil comes in. It seems that there were some forms of life that pre-date the Ainur entering Middle-Earth. Perhaps some of these things are part of nature itself and existed (in some manner) before Arda was created.

Arien the Maia · 01-10-2004, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thorin II
Not to open a classic Tolkien debate, but this could be where Tom Bombadil comes in. It seems that there were some forms of life that pre-date the Ainur entering Middle-Earth. Perhaps some of these things are part of nature itself and existed (in some manner) before Arda was created.

so it would be like Eru created beings before he created the Ainur and Arda?

Wayfarer · 01-10-2004, 02:20 AM

Or they could have been Ainur that got to Middle Earth before Sauron.

Or they could have been beings in Middle Earth before the Ainur arrived.

Or they could have been creatures that existed before Sauron took bodily form.

Captain Stern · 01-10-2004, 02:39 PM

He doesn't specifically state that they were creatures, only 'things'...

I tend to see it Thorin II's way.

01-05-2004, 07:49 PM	#23
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Well, I haven't seen anything to shake my conviction that CÃrdan was the oldest living Elf in Middle-earth, though I do agree with Wayfarer that Galadriel was the oldest Noldo. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial*.

01-06-2004, 01:59 PM	#25
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Ah. A younger younger brother. I see. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-06-2004, 04:12 PM	#26
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	yes, you know- those irritating creations ... (at least acc'd to my older son) __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva!

01-07-2004, 01:29 AM	#27
Thorin II Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 161	I'm under the impression Cirdan is the oldest in ME. Related to that, is anyone else puzzled by Tolkien's description of Cirdan as having a long beard? Since when do Elves, even really old ones, have beards? __________________ "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs

01-07-2004, 12:38 PM	#28
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Well, I've never been much for the idea that elves were always babyfaced. I think that it's likely that elves /did/ grow beards, but that they started growing much later than in humans. It's also possible (and likely) that whether or not an elf had a beard was a voluntary decision on their part. They were lords of their own body, after all. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-05-2004, 04:08 PM	#21
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	"Elmo"? eh?

01-05-2004, 07:05 PM	#22
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Elmo: younger brother of Elwe & Olwe . Father of Galadhon . grandfather of Galathil & Celeborn . great Grandfather of Nimloth (the wife of Dior)

01-07-2004, 02:15 PM	#29
Turgon_Turambar Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The depths of Thangorodrim Posts: 145	does anyway know how old cirdan was by the time he left ME not an exact age like 10,345 years but roughly. beginning of 1st age to end of 3rd how many years is that? __________________ GOD SENT ME TO PISS THE WORLD OFF!!!!!!!!!!

01-07-2004, 02:56 PM	#31
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	since the rising of the sun and moon it is somewhere around 7,000 years till the grey havens departure... though the length of these years during the 600 of the first age is somewhat disputed, due to changes in the courses of the sun and the moon before the sun and moon it is even more difficult... some put the time of the elves before the rise of the sun and moon on the order of 4,500 years (see Sil Chronology, based upon info from HoME morgoth's ring) this would put Cirdan at about 11,500, if i did my math right __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

01-08-2004, 12:25 PM	#32
Turgon_Turambar Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The depths of Thangorodrim Posts: 145	Thats pretty damn old. Saurons quite old aswell. __________________ GOD SENT ME TO PISS THE WORLD OFF!!!!!!!!!!

01-10-2004, 02:20 AM	#39
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Or they could have been Ainur that got to Middle Earth before Sauron. Or they could have been beings in Middle Earth before the Ainur arrived. Or they could have been creatures that existed before Sauron took bodily form. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-10-2004, 02:39 PM	#40
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	He doesn't specifically state that they were creatures, only 'things'... I tend to see it Thorin II's way. __________________ Then hate overcame FÃ«anor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in EÃ¤.

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