Seven stars? - Page 2

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-30-2003, 11:34 AM

Moving to the Middle-earth forum.

Lefty Scaevola · 12-30-2003, 12:15 PM

HoME IV, The Shaping Of Middle-Earth
. The Quenta

"..and high above the North, a challenge to Morgoth, she (Varda) set the crown of Seven mighty Stars to swing, the emblem of the Gods, and sign of Morgoth's doom."

aslo called The Plough, The Sickle, The Burning Briar, and The Great Bear. Big Dipper to us.

Repeated in HoME V, Quenta Silmarillion, chap 3, sec 19, and
Sil, Cap 3, pg 48

***Valandil*** · 12-30-2003, 02:39 PM

OK, so from what I gather, the consensus is that either:

1. It IS a double-reference to the palantiri, by referring to the ships that bore them.

OR

2. It is a reference to seven stars in the sky.

In some ways, neither makes sense to me. For the first, the rhyme has already told us in the previous line that there were nine ships ('three times three') - and it seems redundant to make an additional reference to those ships that carry a palantir, when ships and palantiri have both already been mentioned.

The stars in the sky don't make sense because the exiles didn't carry them as they came.

Alternate theory: A mystery... maybe it isn't common knowledge just what they refer to... and it's something else. Maybe still known in later ages to kings and chieftains... maybe even lost to their knowledge. What do you all think? Any takers???

Artanis · 12-30-2003, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
The stars in the sky don't make sense because the exiles didn't carry them as they came.

Why did they have to carry them?

The Elves were the people of the stars, and Valacirca was set by Varda in the north, as a sign to Melkor of his doom. I think it would make sense for a person named Elendil to bear that sign.

***Valandil*** · 12-30-2003, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Why did they have to carry them?

Don't have my copy of "Two Towers" with me, but isn't the rhyme about what they brought to Middle Earth with them from Numenor? It's in one of the last pages of Book 3, if you have it close by...

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-30-2003, 04:09 PM

Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree.

***Valandil*** · 12-30-2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree.

So it WAS stuff they brought with them...

Was JRRT just giving us another mystery? Another unsolved piece of the puzzle, to make Middle Earth seem more real?

Artanis · 12-30-2003, 04:14 PM

I see, and I just read SGH's explanation earlier in this thread.

Quote:

Seven Stars - The six pointed stars that served as the emblem of Elendil and his heirs. They represented the single stars on the banners of each of the ships of the Faithful that bore a palantir.

So they did carry the stars after all.

Edit: Cross post with Val.

***Valandil*** · 12-30-2003, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
So they did carry the stars after all.

But see my point 1 in the third post from the top of this page... does that point make sense? Or do you still think it could be those 7 star emblems?

C'mon... let's make a mystery!

Artanis · 12-30-2003, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
But see my point 1 in the third post from the top of this page... does that point make sense? Or do you still think it could be those 7 star emblems?

C'mon... let's make a mystery!

I'm not sure what you mean.

After seeing the poem, the most likely solution is the star of each of the banners of the 7 ships that bore a palantir. And on a second thought, those 7 stars together could again be a symbol of the Valacirca.

***Valandil*** · 12-30-2003, 05:04 PM

Quote:

1. It IS a double-reference to the palantiri, by referring to the ships that bore them.

OR

2. It is a reference to seven stars in the sky.

In some ways, neither makes sense to me. For the first, the rhyme has already told us in the previous line that there were nine ships ('three times three') - and it seems redundant to make an additional reference to those ships that carry a palantir, when ships and palantiri have both already been mentioned.

The stars in the sky don't make sense because the exiles didn't carry them as they came.

Alternate theory: A mystery... maybe it isn't common knowledge just what they refer to... and it's something else. Maybe still known in later ages to kings and chieftains... maybe even lost to their knowledge. What do you all think? Any takers???

This part... maybe mentioning point 1 was confusing - I was really refering to the paragraph starting "In some ways..." as a response to possibility #1. Does THAT make sense as something to refute that the reference is to banners on certain ships?

Artanis · 12-30-2003, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Does THAT make sense as something to refute that the reference is to banners on certain ships?

No ... I don't think so, not as I see it. The stars were in some way important to the Dúnedain, they were used as emblems in several places. They were not redundant.

LotR - The Ring goes south:

Quote:

The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes; for Aragorn son of Arathorn was going to war upon the marches of Mordor.

And LotR - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Quote:

And all eyes followed his gaze, and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White Tree, and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown above it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count. And the stars flamed in the sunlight, for they were wrought of gems by Arwen daughter of Elrond; and the crown was bright in the morning, for it was wrought of mithril and gold.

LotR - Appendix A, Gondor and the heirs of Anarion:

Quote:

Nonetheless the Stewards never sat on the ancient throne; and they wore no crown, and held no sceptre. They bore a white rod only as the token of their office; and their banner was white without charge; but the royal banner had been sable, upon which was displayed a white tree in blossom beneath seven stars.

I think it's sensible to think that the emblem refer to the Valacirca, especially since it was Dúrin's sign too.

***Valandil*** · 12-30-2003, 06:32 PM

Yeah, in a way I see your point... but they BROUGHT them... and that would refer to just emblems??? I dunno...

Twista · 01-05-2004, 12:05 PM

i havent read all of this thread bcus im in a rush so if i repeating someone else im sorry lol.

somone mentioned the tree with the stars engroved on it, maybe its like a constellation of stars the sky, of the white tree?

Dúnedain · 01-27-2004, 09:50 PM

Here is something else, I am sure it is significant, but I am unsure how it relates to this, but I think there is another saying in regards to this, but I am sure this holds some significance as well, especially knowing the lineages coming from Tuor. This is just after he takes the things from Nevrast in Turgon's old city and just before he speaks to Ulmo:

Quote:

From Unfinished Tales; Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin:

Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 04-24-2004, 07:36 PM

there are 2 meanings for 7 stars

1) the stars of Elendil, seven stars, one on each ship with palantir etc

2) the 7 stars on gates of moria are dwarven symbols. they are the 7 stars that durin saw reflected in the kheled-zaram, which is also the sickle, so is in fact endearment to the leves and the dwarves!

Finrod Felagund · 04-29-2004, 09:55 AM

My understanding was that the 7 strars was the sickle of the Valar, (a constellation), and was in the signs of Dwarves and Gondor.
I believ they are the same seven sars.

ranger · 05-22-2004, 09:49 PM

im not completely shure but i think they have to do with the tall kings

12-30-2003, 11:34 AM	#21
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Moving to the Middle-earth forum. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

12-30-2003, 12:15 PM	#22
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	HoME IV, The Shaping Of Middle-Earth . The Quenta "..and high above the North, a challenge to Morgoth, she (Varda) set the crown of Seven mighty Stars to swing, the emblem of the Gods, and sign of Morgoth's doom." aslo called The Plough, The Sickle, The Burning Briar, and The Great Bear. Big Dipper to us. Repeated in HoME V, Quenta Silmarillion, chap 3, sec 19, and Sil, Cap 3, pg 48 __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 12-30-2003 at 12:22 PM.

12-30-2003, 04:09 PM	#26
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Tall ships and tall kings Three times three, What brought they from the foundered land Over the flowing sea? Seven stars and seven stones And one white tree. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

04-29-2004, 09:55 AM	#37
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	My understanding was that the 7 strars was the sickle of the Valar, (a constellation), and was in the signs of Dwarves and Gondor. I believ they are the same seven sars. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

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12-30-2003, 02:39 PM	#23
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	OK, so from what I gather, the consensus is that either: 1. It IS a double-reference to the palantiri, by referring to the ships that bore them. OR 2. It is a reference to seven stars in the sky. In some ways, neither makes sense to me. For the first, the rhyme has already told us in the previous line that there were nine ships ('three times three') - and it seems redundant to make an additional reference to those ships that carry a palantir, when ships and palantiri have both already been mentioned. The stars in the sky don't make sense because the exiles didn't carry them as they came. Alternate theory: A mystery... maybe it isn't common knowledge just what they refer to... and it's something else. Maybe still known in later ages to kings and chieftains... maybe even lost to their knowledge. What do you all think? Any takers???

12-30-2003, 06:32 PM	#33
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Yeah, in a way I see your point... but they BROUGHT them... and that would refer to just emblems??? I dunno...

01-05-2004, 12:05 PM	#34
Twista Orodruin's Flame Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kananaskis, AB Posts: 1,194	i havent read all of this thread bcus im in a rush so if i repeating someone else im sorry lol. somone mentioned the tree with the stars engroved on it, maybe its like a constellation of stars the sky, of the white tree?

04-24-2004, 07:36 PM	#36
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	there are 2 meanings for 7 stars 1) the stars of Elendil, seven stars, one on each ship with palantir etc 2) the 7 stars on gates of moria are dwarven symbols. they are the 7 stars that durin saw reflected in the kheled-zaram, which is also the sickle, so is in fact endearment to the leves and the dwarves!

05-22-2004, 09:49 PM	#38
ranger Hobbit Join Date: May 2004 Location: im a ranger!!!! Posts: 39	im not completely shure but i think they have to do with the tall kings