Saruman's Motives

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lalaith
How can anybody not beeing evil understand the thoughts and purposes of an evil person?

oh I think its safe to say we all have a little bit of Sauron in us. We are all corruptable and have dark parts in our heart somewhere. Some more then others. But yeah there is a gap there between human imperfection and super demigod genious evil. And thats why theres speculation.

[Lalaith]

But I guess thats the point of books, you have to guess how it feels to be the hero or the villain.

[congressmn]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
oh I think its safe to say we all have a little bit of Sauron in us. We are all corruptable and have dark parts in our heart somewhere. Some more then others. But yeah there is a gap there between human imperfection and super demigod genious evil. And thats why theres speculation.

O yeah, I'm all Sauron. Beware.

[barrelrider110]

Originally posted by azalea
I think they were playing games w/ each other. Each knew the other was just pretending to be an ally, and each one knew the other one knew that, but they played the game anyway. Saruman knew that Sauron getting the ring would not be in his own (Saruman's) best interest, and Sauron was suspicious of everyone I'm sure. But I don't think Saruman had always intended to get the ring for himself to use, but over time the thought grew in his mind and twisted him, until he became what we see in the books.

I think Azalea's basically hit the nail on the head.

Saruman's alliance with Sauron was only a game--much like the pre-war alliance of Hitler with Stalin--each planned to double-cross the other when they had the upper hand. But I disagree on one point-- From what Sauron told Pippin when the foolofatook looked into the seeing-stone, Sauron seemed to think that Saruman would hand the ring and the hobbits over to him. I think he overestimated his own ability to control Saruman. He, like Saruman, had a blind spot caused by his own pride.

[Lalaith]

Pride and Power. Not a good combination at all.

[barrelrider110]

Originally posted by Lalaith
How can anybody not beeing evil understand the thoughts and purposes of an evil person?

And those who are evil do not understand the thoughts and purposes of good.

[Dunadan]

Hello

Just back from a short break, so here's my tuppence worth.

I seem to recall Gandalf saying, in TTT, that Sauron was "in great fear", as he did not know who would seize the Ring and challenge him. Certainly, this would include Saruman, who was arguably the most powerful entity in Middle Earth after Sauron. Earlier, he states that Saruman specifically wanted to find the Ring for himself for a long time.

Remembering Sauron's words to Pippin:

It is not for you, Saruman. I will send for it at once.

it's clear that Sauron knew this. And later, we discover that Saruman could (and did) withstand the Nazgul within Orthanc, even without the Ring. Of course, Sauron believes that Saruman (or others) may have it, which triggers his attack.

This is one of my favourite aspects of the book, which was left out of the movie, and I'm praying they'll reinstate in ROTK.

(PS - it does make me think about Saruman's attack on Rohan. If he really did want the Ring, he'd know that as soon as he found it, Sauron would hit him with everything he could. What better cannon fodder could Saruman have than the Rohirrim to buffer him from attack? So why did he attack Rohan?)

I think that the story of Saruman is less about good not being able to understand evil, nor vice versa, than about becoming "enamoured of the arts of the enemy" and being lured into pride and conceit.

cheers

d.

[barrelrider110]

Originally posted by Dunadan
(PS - it does make me think about Saruman's attack on Rohan. If he really did want the Ring, he'd know that as soon as he found it, Sauron would hit him with everything he could. What better cannon fodder could Saruman have than the Rohirrim to buffer him from attack? So why did he attack Rohan?)

Saruman, in his speach to Gandalf, basically laid out his plan. He had two options (A) to enlist Gandalf's aid, recover the ring, and challenge Sauron openly and (B) to pretend to ally himself with Sauron, decieve him, and somehow wrest power away from him. Saruman hoped that Gandalf would go along with his scheme. When it became clear that Gandalf wanted no part of it, he had to proceed with plan B, because he knew to challenge Sauron by himself would be folly.

The evil misunderstood the motives of the good which lead to their ruin.

Saruman thought that Gandalf, also lusted for power and would be enticed by his vision of a new hegemony. That's why he took the chance on revealing his plan. Sauron, likewise never thought that the forces of good would actually contrive to destroy the ring. Both resulted in their downfall.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Dunadan
(PS - it does make me think about Saruman's attack on Rohan. If he really did want the Ring, he'd know that as soon as he found it, Sauron would hit him with everything he could. What better cannon fodder could Saruman have than the Rohirrim to buffer him from attack? So why did he attack Rohan?)

Well probably for a couple reasons. Sauron wanted him to of course so that the defense of Gondor would be lessened. And Saruman, even if he had designs of world domination himself, was still playing along with Sauron at that point. Also, if Gondor was to be victorious then suddenly he would have to face BOTH Rohan and the remnents of Gondor AND at that point all the reinforcements from the various other kingdoms around middle earth that didnt have time to organize for the Helms Deep attack. Plus it would just be a great land grab anyway. Lets assume Gondor fell and Rohan fell. Saruman would then control most of middle earth really. And Saurons forces would have to advance on him.

EDIT: barrelrider110 you beat me to that little nugget in there I see.

[cassiopeia]

In the Letters of JRR Tolkien he says (#181):

They [wizards] were also, for the same reason, thus involved in the peril of the incarnate: the possiblility of 'fall', of sin, if you will. The chief form this would take with them would be impatience, leading to the desire to force others to their own good ends, and so inevitably at last to mere desire to make their own wills effective by any means. To this evil Saruman succumbed.

So, regarding the question at the beginning of this thread, Saruman wanted the ring for himself, so he could force his will upon others.