Ranking of Mair? - Page 2

Andúril · 01-20-2003, 01:33 PM

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SGH:
Which brother is the elder here?

You even had to ask?

Anyway, I'm the elder. I'm 22 and he is 20.

Hey -- I like that!

Andúril the Elder.

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More:Gosh you two sound like Feanor and Fingolfin squabbling.

You have no idea...

Lizra · 01-20-2003, 05:24 PM

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Originally posted by Andúril
But you think I'm good, right?

Of course! Good and cute! That's you....

The Lady of Ithilien · 01-20-2003, 09:56 PM

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Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
In the beginning Sauron was of the Maiar of Aule.

Thank you! I had forgotten that. And somewhere, I think in The Lord of the Rings, it is said that nothing is evil to begin with, not even Sauron.

I wonder if there is a connection there with why the Dwarves, made by Aule himself, proved so resistant to the Rings, not turning into wraiths and so forth.

As for the ranking of the Maiar, and who is the most powerful one, well, with JRRT things get tricky when "power" is brought up. In terms of handiness with tools, command and control, it is definitely Sauron. From the "Valaquenta" of The Silmarillion:

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Among those of his (i.e., Melkor's) servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself....

And yet another Maia, whom we think of most often as Gandalf, was set in opposition to Sauron, in fact, he himself said "I was the Enemy of Sauron," and Sauron was defeated. Does this mean that Gandalf, or Olorin, was more powerful than Sauron? What is your definition of power?

Wayfarer · 01-21-2003, 01:24 AM

Power is a very badly chosen word when used in this context.

Melkor, for example, had a part of all the other ainur's power, but it certainly seems that this leaves him a 'jack of all trades master of none' Both Ulmo and Manwe effectively banned him from any interference with their respective elements, and yet he is supposedly more powerful than either of them?

On the other hand, Tulkas easily defeated Morgoth on several occassions, yet he is widely considered the least of the Valar.

When Osse rebelled, even Ulmo (who is generally agreed to be number 3 after Melkor and Manwe) couldn't stop him. Uinen, however, managed to do so with a few choice words.

Sauron was the greatest in Aule's lore, which was that of crafting, shaping, and making. It was this knowledge which enabled him to forge the one ring.

Saruman was also a maiar of aule, and it was his great knowledge regarding 'the lore of the enemy' that made him the first choice to lead the istari and later, the white council. It was also this study of sauron which led to his downfall.

Gandalf, however, was considered to be the wisest of the maiar. It was his understanding of elves and humans which eventually allowed him to arrange the downfall of both sauron and saruman.

Need I remind you that this is emphatically not AD&D. There is no way to numerically measure and compare the power of two different maiar. The only real measurement is who is still standing when the dust clears.

Andúril · 01-21-2003, 02:40 AM

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The Lady of Ithilien:
*snip*

As for the ranking of the Maiar, and who is the most powerful one, well, with JRRT things get tricky when "power" is brought up. In terms of handiness with tools, command and control, it is definitely Sauron. From the "Valaquenta" of The Silmarillion:

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Among those of his (i.e., Melkor's) servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself....

*snip*

This quote indicates that Sauron merely "remained mighty" in the lore of Aule. It does not say that Sauron was the most powerful Maia "in terms of handiness and tools, command and control". I assume you intended to use this passage to support your assertion. Am I correct?

Andúril · 01-21-2003, 02:44 AM

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Lizra:
Of course! Good and cute! That's you....

Yay!

sauron100 · 01-21-2003, 06:30 AM

Anduril, your argumentative nature brings nothing useful to this discussion, as well as you might *think*.On the contrary, you have been quick to dismiss the same question on numerous occasions, with regards to the "who is more powerful" type questions, more people believe that Sauron is more powerful in might, than you might think, and you KNOW that.

Trying to bring up mistakes in threads, is well....a bit immature, as everyone makes mistakes, and bringing this into equation, is simply bordering on ridiculous, and downright childish.You have tried to disprove many times, that he could be the greatest in power, and to suggest that you "do" believe is a blatant lie,and many will agree with me to this.If you want to argue this, then by all means try your best and bring up references to dismiss my findings, and you have not read the silmarillion either, which is also suspicious.MMMNNNNN........it seems you are showing a bit of inconsistency yourself, try a *bit* harder.The funniest thing of all, is that nobody knows that you have a "argument book" next to your computer, trying to use phrases to outrank someone elses post, which strikes me,as well as others as a bit weak in practice.Your post structure is pretty strange, as well as to use words such as "Adhominem" which is pretty lame.Seems to me that you REALLY do want to argue , and your circular logic brings nothing useful to this discussion, as i want thoughts and opinions, not some newsgroup exchange, which 'should' be beyond your age..........or should it.

sauron100 · 01-21-2003, 06:33 AM

Wayfarer, correct me of i'm wrong but although Telkas beat Morgoth, was that not because his power was put forth into his servants and the earth?

sauron100 · 01-21-2003, 06:35 AM

Sorry, Tulkas.

Andúril · 01-21-2003, 09:22 AM

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Sauron100:
Anduril, your argumentative nature brings nothing useful to this discussion, as well as you might *think*.

Try to make sense next time, okay? You might want to type out a draft response, and then proof-read your final post.

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More:On the contrary, you have been quick to dismiss the same question on numerous occasions, with regards to the "who is more powerful" type questions, more people believe that Sauron is more powerful in might, than you might think, and you KNOW that.

Nonsense. I have never "dismissed" a question. LOL!

And don't try the old "more people believe" crap. That is the the ad numerum logical fallacy, and if I were to explain to you the meaning of the term I would be wasting my time. In fact, I don't know why I'm even responding to your ludicrous post.

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Trying to bring up mistakes in threads, is well....a bit immature, as everyone makes mistakes, and bringing this into equation, is simply bordering on ridiculous, and downright childish.

Your ad hominem attacks don't stop, do they? Is that how you think you are going to win arguments?

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You have tried to disprove many times, that he could be the greatest in power, and to suggest that you "do" believe is a blatant lie,and many will agree with me to this.

No. This is a straw man. I have not "tried to disprove many times, that he could be the greatest in power", because that would require me to disprove a possibility, while I am actually skeptical about, and question, assertions appealing to certainty. There is a difference, and if you don't see it, that's your problem.

Once again, I do believe that Sauron was the greatest of the people of Aule. This absolutely irrelevant unless you can provide text that indicates that Aule's Maiar were the greatest of all Maiar.

No sane person will agree with you on this.

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If you want to argue this, then by all means try your best and bring up references to dismiss my findings,

What findings? Your problem is that the conclusion you are trying to prove is not supported by your "findings", which are not even properly quoted. Your argument is weak and unsound.

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and you have not read the silmarillion either, which is also suspicious.MMMNNNNN........

Actually, I have read the Silmarillian twice. I have parts of the Valaquenta on my PC, which I typed out myself. You, on the other hand, only claim to have read FotR, and the beginning of TTT.

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it seems you are showing a bit of inconsistency yourself, try a *bit* harder.

Really?

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The funniest thing of all, is that nobody knows that you have a "argument book" next to your computer, trying to use phrases to outrank someone elses post, which strikes me,as well as others as a bit weak in practice.

Actually, that is not an "argument book". If you had bothered to read the title on the cover, you would have seen that it was study material from my course last year. I had it on my desk because I needed to quote a passage from it in this thread.

The book does not contain "phrases to outrank". If you had bothered to page through it you would have known this. Additionally, please provide the names of the people who agree with you on this topic. While the results of such a survey are meangless to me, it might stop you from making such wild assertions.

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Your post structure is pretty strange, as well as to use words such as "Adhominem" which is pretty lame.

It's only "lame" because you don't know what ad hominem means.

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Seems to me that you REALLY do want to argue , and your circular logic brings nothing useful to this discussion, as i want thoughts and opinions, not some newsgroup exchange, which 'should' be beyond your age..........or should it.

LOL! Are you trying to make yourself look like a fool?

Anyway, why don't you first tell us what circular logic is, and then provide an example from my posts.

You can respond if you wish, but I'm done with you.

Dunadan · 01-21-2003, 09:49 AM

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Originally posted by sauron100
Wayfarer, correct me of i'm wrong but although Telkas beat Morgoth, was that not because his power was put forth into his servants and the earth?

Who knows? I think Wayfarer's point was that Tolkien's conception of "power" is far more complex and subtle than "who's got the most". For a start, it's to do with the essential nature of each individual (whether hobbit or Vala).

Tom Bombadil, for example, could not be caught by anyone. That must include Morgoth and Sauron, because he's been there forever, but that doesn't mean that he's more powerful than them. Consider also Denethor, a mere mortal, whom Sauron could not ensnare via the Palantir in the same way he took hold of Saruman, a Maia. There are countless examples; it's about quality and essence, not quantity.

Tulkas gubbed Morgoth in a square go because that was his nature. Maybe if Morgoth had asked him what he'd got in his pocketses, however, the outcome would've been different.

cheers

d.

Wayfarer · 01-21-2003, 12:24 PM

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Wayfarer, correct me of i'm wrong but although Telkas beat Morgoth, was that not because his power was put forth into his servants and the earth?

No. In fact, when tulkas originally fought Melkor (not morgoth) during the spring of arda, the orcs, dragons, and such had not yet been created. He was still at full strength.

P.S. You know Anduril, I have a little brother like that too. ]: )

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-21-2003, 12:56 PM

Anduril and Sauron, I know brothers will be brothers, but you two need to stop with the personal attacks on the forum. It is in violation of posting policy and it is inflammatory.

Discuss the topic and leave the insults out. If you must argue with flames, then take it to a PM.

Falagar · 01-21-2003, 01:00 PM

Wow! They really are worse than Fëanor and Fingolfin!

sauron100 · 01-21-2003, 01:02 PM

Anduril, you are a complete waste of my time, and have clearly no intent of letting go.Lets see how quickly you respond.....

Just remember that it was "YOU" who started this argument, and you clearly know why....i dont see a point in continuing, as you obviously have an ego boost of sorts.Seems that you are confused, as i do not want this squabble,as i said before.Responding to my previous post is proof of your insulance.And if you took the time to think what circular logic is,you might understand why you constantly are running in circles.You clearly want YOUR way or no-one elses.It is impossible to talk to you, as another rambling will persue.I would please like to stick to the topic, and hope you do the same.

sauron100 · 01-21-2003, 01:04 PM

I would like to apologize to everyone on my behalf for this bickering, as I want nothing more than a healthy discussion.Arguing brings nothing to this discussion, so... again sorry.

sauron100 · 01-21-2003, 01:06 PM

This is slightly off topic, but could not Ungoliant have possibly been the most powerful being for a short time period, as "it" ate the silmarials as well as drinking from the two trees, becoming bigger than Morgoth himself, and Morgoth soon became fearful of Ungoliant?

Dunadan · 01-21-2003, 01:09 PM

Good example. Melkor certainly made a mess of his trousers when she turned on him. Again, though, I think this is a case of her doing her "special thing"; in this case, consumption. In the end, she consumed herself

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-21-2003, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sauron100
This is slightly off topic, but could not Ungoliant have possibly been the most powerful being for a short time period, as "it" ate the silmarials as well as drinking from the two trees, becoming bigger than Morgoth himself, and Morgoth soon became fearful of Ungoliant?

Ungoliant didn't eat the Silmarils. Morgoth wouldn't give them to her, and that is when she rose up against him.

sauron100 · 01-21-2003, 01:20 PM

Sister Golden Hair, in your humble opinion, do you think Ungoliant is/was all powerful in that instant where she rose to Morgoth, as it took a large number of balrogs, to free Morgoth from that web?

01-21-2003, 01:24 AM	#24
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Power is a very badly chosen word when used in this context. Melkor, for example, had a part of all the other ainur's power, but it certainly seems that this leaves him a 'jack of all trades master of none' Both Ulmo and Manwe effectively banned him from any interference with their respective elements, and yet he is supposedly more powerful than either of them? On the other hand, Tulkas easily defeated Morgoth on several occassions, yet he is widely considered the least of the Valar. When Osse rebelled, even Ulmo (who is generally agreed to be number 3 after Melkor and Manwe) couldn't stop him. Uinen, however, managed to do so with a few choice words. Sauron was the greatest in Aule's lore, which was that of crafting, shaping, and making. It was this knowledge which enabled him to forge the one ring. Saruman was also a maiar of aule, and it was his great knowledge regarding 'the lore of the enemy' that made him the first choice to lead the istari and later, the white council. It was also this study of sauron which led to his downfall. Gandalf, however, was considered to be the wisest of the maiar. It was his understanding of elves and humans which eventually allowed him to arrange the downfall of both sauron and saruman. Need I remind you that this is emphatically not AD&D. There is no way to numerically measure and compare the power of two different maiar. The only real measurement is who is still standing when the dust clears. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-21-2003, 12:56 PM	#33
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Anduril and Sauron, I know brothers will be brothers, but you two need to stop with the personal attacks on the forum. It is in violation of posting policy and it is inflammatory. Discuss the topic and leave the insults out. If you must argue with flames, then take it to a PM. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

01-21-2003, 01:00 PM	#34
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Wow! They really are worse than Fëanor and Fingolfin! __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

01-21-2003, 06:30 AM	#27
sauron100 Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	Anduril, your argumentative nature brings nothing useful to this discussion, as well as you might think.On the contrary, you have been quick to dismiss the same question on numerous occasions, with regards to the "who is more powerful" type questions, more people believe that Sauron is more powerful in might, than you might think, and you KNOW that. Trying to bring up mistakes in threads, is well....a bit immature, as everyone makes mistakes, and bringing this into equation, is simply bordering on ridiculous, and downright childish.You have tried to disprove many times, that he could be the greatest in power, and to suggest that you "do" believe is a blatant lie,and many will agree with me to this.If you want to argue this, then by all means try your best and bring up references to dismiss my findings, and you have not read the silmarillion either, which is also suspicious.MMMNNNNN........it seems you are showing a bit of inconsistency yourself, try a bit harder.The funniest thing of all, is that nobody knows that you have a "argument book" next to your computer, trying to use phrases to outrank someone elses post, which strikes me,as well as others as a bit weak in practice.Your post structure is pretty strange, as well as to use words such as "Adhominem" which is pretty lame.Seems to me that you REALLY do want to argue , and your circular logic brings nothing useful to this discussion, as i want thoughts and opinions, not some newsgroup exchange, which 'should' be beyond your age..........or should it.

01-21-2003, 06:33 AM	#28
sauron100 Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	Wayfarer, correct me of i'm wrong but although Telkas beat Morgoth, was that not because his power was put forth into his servants and the earth?

01-21-2003, 06:35 AM	#29
sauron100 Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	Sorry, Tulkas.

01-21-2003, 01:02 PM	#35
sauron100 Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	Anduril, you are a complete waste of my time, and have clearly no intent of letting go.Lets see how quickly you respond..... Just remember that it was "YOU" who started this argument, and you clearly know why....i dont see a point in continuing, as you obviously have an ego boost of sorts.Seems that you are confused, as i do not want this squabble,as i said before.Responding to my previous post is proof of your insulance.And if you took the time to think what circular logic is,you might understand why you constantly are running in circles.You clearly want YOUR way or no-one elses.It is impossible to talk to you, as another rambling will persue.I would please like to stick to the topic, and hope you do the same.

01-21-2003, 01:04 PM	#36
sauron100 Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	I would like to apologize to everyone on my behalf for this bickering, as I want nothing more than a healthy discussion.Arguing brings nothing to this discussion, so... again sorry.

01-21-2003, 01:06 PM	#37
sauron100 Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	This is slightly off topic, but could not Ungoliant have possibly been the most powerful being for a short time period, as "it" ate the silmarials as well as drinking from the two trees, becoming bigger than Morgoth himself, and Morgoth soon became fearful of Ungoliant?

01-21-2003, 01:09 PM	#38
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	Good example. Melkor certainly made a mess of his trousers when she turned on him. Again, though, I think this is a case of her doing her "special thing"; in this case, consumption. In the end, she consumed herself

01-21-2003, 01:20 PM	#40
sauron100 Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	Sister Golden Hair, in your humble opinion, do you think Ungoliant is/was all powerful in that instant where she rose to Morgoth, as it took a large number of balrogs, to free Morgoth from that web?