anti-immigration

[Wayfarer]

I'm of two minds on this issue.

First of all, america is and has always been a country of immigrants. In light of that fact, we really do need to allow people access to our country.

However, it is more and more common that people take advantage of our leniency. And this needs to be curbed.

For examply, just recently, President Fox of Mexico pushed for 'dual citizenship'. He wants mexican immigrants to america to be treated the same as american citizens, but still be considered mexican citizens. Problematically, the american oath of naturilization requires thge foreswearing of other loyalties.

Another thing that gets me is the whole multiculturalism deal. We get people coming in, for example (again) from mexico, who expect to be treated as privilidged individuals, and getting it. I.E. Bilingual classrooms for immigrants who don't want to learn english. I find this offensive. (to pre-empt a common concern, I find it equally offensive when english-speaking people go to other countries and expect to be accomodated)

It seems to me that problems occur when people A) start thinking of themselves primarily in ethnic or racial rerms and B) seperating themselves from others in order to keep that identity.

I'm really, really White. But I don't identify myself primarily as a white person. I have no problem associating with members of other races. I'm also bourgeosie, but I have good friends that are poor, and others that are filthy rich. And I think that's the way we should all be.

But I think we're setting ourselves up for the fall with the whole diversity movement. More and more, we have people who think in terms of "I'm white" "I'm black" "I'm asian". We're also allowing more and more seperation-for example, Spanish speaking classrooms, all black or all white facilities. Regions of our country are developing thier own microcosms to the point that we have regions that are all white, or all black, or all hispanic, or all asian, or whatever. Large numbers of people see themselves as members of a small group, rather than as a whole. And that's not healthy by any means.

[jerseydevil]

I agree with you 100% Wayfarer. I term it as self-segregation. I'm for immigration - but legal immigration. Also - if people want the beneifts that we enjoy - they should become American citizens (not dual citizenship). I also want the stupid hyphenation of America to end.

[afro-elf]

I have no problem associating with members of other races.

WHAT!. There's minorites in the Dakotas!

Back in 96' I drive across most of the states heading to alberta and I crossed through north dakota with two swiss buddies of mine. I think that we saw two indians. However, there was not any racism at all.

[Wayfarer]

Ah, yes. Indians. Actually, do you know I've met a couple girls who are from India? They're half decent (read: half of them are decent).

Actually, native americans are (or can be) a prime example of what I described- they segregate themselves, they have thier own police force, and they aren't subject to the same laws as the rest of us. It's pretty pathetic in some places.

While I'll admit that there aren't many blacks or aisans in the dakotas, we do have quite a few hispanics. My younger 'sister' is mostly hispanic. It's just that, aside from the group I've mentioned, the different ethnic groups in south dakota are surprisingly integrated.

[jerseydevil]

I have a friend who is Indian (American Indian) who lives on Six Nation Indian Reserve. She hates the reserve really. For one thing she grew up in Buffalo - went to college in West Virginia - so on the reserve she's considered an outsider. The reason why I started to write this - was because I've never met an Indian that wanted to be called Native American. They think that whole PC name is stupid. There is even a Red Face or Red Man gas station on the reserve ( I can never remember what it's exact name is).

Most Indians also think the whole movement against sports teams being called the chiefs and stuff is stupid too.

I do agree with you that most Indians want a seperate society. The thing is - they want the best of both worlds too.

[afro-elf]

wayfarer i should have said native american

jerserydevil ask your friend what highschool she went to in Buffalo


i wonder if i know her

[jerseydevil]

I was initially going to put this in the "Increased Islamic Influence in European Nations" thread - but then I thought it didn't necessarily belong. Europe seems to be going through a big anti-immagration, anti-other races period. This is just one small example which was in The Epoch News which I picked up from my grocery store. One of the problems Europe is facing I believe is that they were not, until recently, immigrant countries. It's easy to be understanding and accepting of other cultures - when 99% of the people living there are all the same. It is much more difficult when 10% of your population is foreign born - like in the US, not to mention that whites are only about 60% of the population.

Spanish Image of Tolerance Shaken by Soccer Racism

Seville, Spain (AP) -- Spaniards used to say they lived in one of Europe's most racially tolerant countries. Soccer had undermined that image.

In Madrid's Santiago Bernabeu stadium - the Yankee Stadium of soccer - Spanish fans bellowed out monkey noises last week each time a black English player touched the ball in s match between England and Spain.

A month earlier, Spanish national coach Luis Aragones was caught by a TV crew using racist language about France's star striker Thierry Henry. He kept his job with little protest at home.

"I was shocked and I am still shocked at what happened," said Sepp Blatter, president of soccer's world governing body, FIFA. "I am sad at this new expression of racism in a stadium that has been a temple of football."

Spain isn't the only European country where racism leaves its stain on soccer.

Four days after the abuse in Madrid, black striker Dwight Yorke said he was subjected to racist gestures and noises in Birmingham City's game at Blackburn. Police opened an investigation.

French club Paris St. Germain has an area where only white fans are welcome; another section is open to Paris' many Arab and black immigrants.

Fans of the Czech team Sparta Prague stil shout "Slavia Jude" (Slavia Jew) against local rivals Slavia Progue. The chant dates from the pre-World War II era, when Slavia fans included many jewish businessmen.

Fans of Greek club Panathinaikos are under investigation for racial taunts last month against black players from English club Arsenal.

And two black players for the French club Bastia were roughed up and insulted by 30 fans after a match earlier this month.

Baseball broke its color line in 1947 when Jackie Robinson joined the Brooklyn Dodgers. Robinson was taunted for years, and it wasn't until the 1960's that civil rights laws and anti-racism campaigns allowed blacks to move easily into most major or and college sports.

Countries such as Spain traditionally have sent citizens abroad, and only began to experience widespread immigration in the past two decades. Spaniards often say they entered the 20th century in 1975, the year dictator Francisco Franco died.

"It took immigrants coming to this country for us to realize that we can be racist like any other country, like anybody else," said Tomas Calvo Buezas, director of the Center for Studies of Migration and Racism at Complutense University in Madrid.

About 7.5 person of Spain's 40 million citizens are immigrants. The figure is higher in Madrid where 13 person are foreign born, Calvo Buezas said.

"Soccer stirs up raw emotions," said Isabel Torrado working at Dehesa Santa Maria, a cafe-bar jst 100 yards from the Ramon Sanchez-Pizjuan stadium, home of the Seville soccer team. Several black men sat outside on benches, with overstuffed athletic bads at their feet.

After France won the 1998 World Cup and the 2000 European championship with a team dominated by black and north African immigrants, 39 percent in a French survey said there were too many foreign-born players on the team.

Fans at Italian clubs Lazio and Verona have been warned about racist goading.

Known as Europe's most tolerant country, even the Netherlands hasseen repeated racism incidents and violence at The Hague-based club Ado Den Haag. Dutch powers Ajax and Feyenoord also have notorious fans.

Former Yugolslav national coach Ivica Osim said soccer racism in his almost entirely white region stems from a deep-seated "inferiority complex against larger, richer clubs or countries."

The racism in football is all about national identity," said Stefan Szymanski, economics professor at Tanaka Business School in London. "It's a way of cementing your identity and singling out people who are not like you."

Soccer racism also is a problem in Israel, where 20 percent of the population is Arab.

"Today there is no game where they don't curse Arabas, even if there aren't any on the field,"said Rifat Turk, an Arab who played for the Israeli national team in the 1980's. People yell "Death to the Arabs" like it's going out of style."

Despite anti-racism campaigns by UEFA, the governoring body of European soccer, and denuciations of racial abuse by FIFA, the message often goes unheeded. Spain and much of Europe have laws against racism, but Calvo Buenzas said they are not enforced.

"People are not used to the fact that being racist in public is reprehensible,"he said. "Here nobody will touch (Aragones)."

UEFA last week boosted fines for racial incidents by Sevilla and Spart Prague, Sparta must pay $51,200 and Sevilla $21,300, small amounts in a sport where top players earn millions.

Two days after the England game in Madrid, the Spanish Coalition against Racism in Football set up a telephone hotline to report racist incidents and sent an apology letter to British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

The incidents certainly tarnished Madrid's image as it bids to host the 2012 Olympics, The city is competing against Paris, London, New York and Moscow.

FIFA says it could be several months before Spain is punished, with a fine the most likely penalty.

That doesn't satisfy Piara Powar, who heads an anti-racism program for England's Football Association. He wants Spain suspended from all European soccer.

"This is not a cycle of events to be dealt with simply by a fine and a slap on the wrist," Powar said.

"The only way to stop it is to take points away in World Cup qualifications," said Eduardo Torrico, assistant sports editor at the Spanish daily AS. "Only something stern will make people wake up."

[EarthBound]

I saw a report on FOX news with a video of our US immigration letting off illegal aliens at the bus stop with 60 day temporary visa's and asking them to promise to return for a court hearing after the 60 days are up...the stats say 95% won't be there....we've got to do something about our southern border, it's been ridicules for years and years.

Agriculture is a large part of my life and our growers need the help and skills offered through Hispanic contractors, so we need a brilliant "idea" to fix our security and provide opportunity for those south of the border and help our Farmers.....

[Nurvingiel]

Oh man JD, that really takes loonball soccer fan heckling to a terrible extreme. Equal-opportunity heckling!

A big problem in British Columbia that isn't talked about much is immigrants (probably illegal) being exploited as cheap farm labour. Now, I don't know that much about it, because it barely made the news last year and only a snippet of information was offered. I consider it to be a big problem not in numbers (our agriculture industry isn't huge) but because this could be violating people's human rights. More research must ensue.

Your post about farm labour reminded me of that EarthBound, but I don't think your idea is a bad one. Wal-Mart employs illegal immigrants, and when I first heard about that I was mad. I think I jumped to the conclusion that they were paid less than minimum wage. However, IIRC, this isn't true. Is there a law in place that ensures illegal immigrants are paid the minimum wage?

Even if you support highly restrictive immigration laws, this idea makes sense. This way there is no incentive at all for a store owner to hire an illegal immigrant over someone else. At the same time, it isn't as easy to exploit them. I won't say it won't happen at all, because people would still ignore laws, and take advantage of people who can't read etc.

About the Mexican American dual citizenship... what was Fox's idea? Did he want Mexicans to be able to apply for American citizenship whilst retaining their Mexican citizenship? Can any country have dual citizenship with the USA? For some reason I thought you couldn't. (Except you can if one of your parents is of a different nationality right? Now I'm just confused.)

[EarthBound]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Oh man JD, that really takes loonball soccer fan heckling to a terrible extreme. Equal-opportunity heckling!

A big problem in British Columbia that isn't talked about much is immigrants (probably illegal) being exploited as cheap farm labour. Now, I don't know that much about it, because it barely made the news last year and only a snippet of information was offered. I consider it to be a big problem not in numbers (our agriculture industry isn't huge) but because this could be violating people's human rights. More research must ensue.

It's an old argument that really stinks. I don't doubt abuse went on into the early 70's but we're really a different country (and several generations later) concerning the environment and social issues {for the better in this case})

All the farms I've been around (professionally and otherwise) had housing when needed (required by law now in many circumstances), gave insentives (clothes, food, more money), had barbeques, looked forward to their arriving to help, did (does) much in the way to help them arrive safely in America (legally) because they do get hasseled so much trying to come over to work, and they often have the same crew (or at least the bosses) come year after year, they usally become deep friends to the familys because it's a personal thing to have help like that on your farm.

Your post about farm labour reminded me of that EarthBound, but I don't think your idea is a bad one. Wal-Mart employs illegal immigrants, and when I first heard about that I was mad. I think I jumped to the conclusion that they were paid less than minimum wage. However, IIRC, this isn't true. Is there a law in place that ensures illegal immigrants are paid the minimum wage?

Sometimes a decision is made on farms to hire someone that has "cagey" paperwork because THERE IS NO ONE ELSE WHO WILL DO THE JOB, it is a matter of desperation on the part of the farmer and the worker...and that is the TRUTH of the matter.

I know you're just looking out for your fellow man/woman, NURV, I'm still looking forward to The Nurv-Accord of 2006....we're counting on you to save the world.....no pressure

[The Gaffer]

I agree that Europe has a problem with immigration. The problem is IMO with people's attitudes and not with immigration as such. There is a lot of entrenched racism throughout Europe (and, btw, Holland is not a particularly tolerant country, people just think it is because you can smoke dope and shag a hoor in Amsterdam, but as soon as you get out of that city it's quite a conservative culture)

Things that particularly annoy me about the way the debate is framed here are how it always ends up focused on race and how it's somehow a different issue when we're taking people to do the crappy jobs we don't want to do ourselves.

Leaving aside issues of cheap labour and workers' rights, the US has shown that immigration can be a very positive and dynamic contribution to a country's economic and cultural life.

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

[Spock]

Originally Posted by emplynx

I live in a southern west virginia that doesn't git any immigrants except the people who run the 2 Chinese and 1 mexican restaurant and some asian doctors. West Virginia is 95% white and I have lived here my entire life.

I share this view, save I'm in S.W. Va. I've no problem with Immigration I do with Illegal Aliens and sneaking into this country. Decades of living in the S.W. proved to me just how harmful I.A. can be and since 9/11 just how dangerous too.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I don't necessarily support the deportation of people that are legally in this country. But if apartment buldings start getting blown up - you better believe the American people will want to restrict immgration against people from the Middle-East.

How would that help? I was under the impression that most terrorists are believed to be currently entering our country from Mexico.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

How would that help? I was under the impression that most terrorists are believed to be currently entering our country from Mexico.

This thread is about IMMIGRATION - not illegal immigration. If an apartment building gets blown up - you better believe that people will want to close down immigration to peopel from teh Middle East. Look at what happend after 9/11 - with stricter security for people flying from the Middle East, even though the terrorists had gotten in through CANADA - not directly from the Middle East.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

This thread is about IMMIGRATION - not illegal immigration. If an apartment building gets blown up - you better believe that people will want to close down immigration to peopel from teh Middle East. Look at what happend after 9/11 - with stricter security for people flying from the Middle East, even though the terrorists had gotten in through CANADA - not directly from the Middle East.

Yeah. I don't get it. Why close down immigration from the Middle East to stop terrorism that isn't coming directly from the Middle East anyway? Or is it that enough of it comes from the Middle East that we'd cut immigration? Or is it that we'd simply do that out of dislike for people of that ethnicity in general? I'm feeling slightly dumb at the moment.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Yeah. I don't get it. Why close down immigration from the Middle East to stop terrorism that isn't coming directly from the Middle East anyway? Or is it that enough of it comes from the Middle East that we'd cut immigration? Or is it that we'd simply do that out of dislike for people of that ethnicity in general? I'm feeling slightly dumb at the moment.

It's not because of dislike for them - because that isn't the case at all. There are millions of muslims and arabs living side by side peacefully in America. It's because when something happens and people are fearful, people demand certain things to be done, whether it's useful or not. Look at Belgium when they started demanding that basically all muslims and arabs be sent back to the middle east after that film maker was killed. Sorry - but that was nothing compared to what the US went through with 9/11 and we didn't have an extreme backlash against muslims like that.

[The Gaffer]

Some additional facts: it was the Netherlands, not Belgium; it was only some extreme right-wingers who made those suggestions, not "they" (which I presume refers to everyone in whatever Euro-whinerland you though you were having a go at); it had a specific racial dimension which 9/11 didn't.

Specifically, van Gogh was anti-immigration, had some pretty extreme views about muslims (calling them goat-shaggers amongst other things) and was closely associated with other far-right groups. So, it was a pretty personal sort of thing. Hardly surprising then that when he was murdered his cronies ramped up their invective. It also came on the heels of the assassination of Pim Fortuyn, an anti-immigration politician.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Some additional facts: it was the Netherlands, not Belgium;

Couldn't remember if it was the Netherlands or belgium. I knew it was one of the small EU states though. Half the times people in the EU can't remember or don't care what American state something happens in - you'll get used to it though or you'll have to learn to accept it as the EU develops into a country, like many people tell Americans that the states don't matter and to just accept their narrow view of the US.

it was only some extreme right-wingers who made those suggestions, not "they" (which I presume refers to everyone in whatever Euro-whinerland you though you were having a go at); it had a specific racial dimension which 9/11 didn't.

Actually - it wasn't just the extreme right-wingers that were making the suggestions. I never thought that tey was synonymous with everyone. I hope that you will be so kind as to stop make generalized suggestions of america then also. But that will probably require hell to freeze over first.

Specifically, van Gogh was anti-immigration, had some pretty extreme views about muslims (calling them goat-shaggers amongst other things) and was closely associated with other far-right groups. So, it was a pretty personal sort of thing. Hardly surprising then that when he was murdered his cronies ramped up their invective. It also came on the heels of the assassination of Pim Fortuyn, an anti-immigration politician.

Well then by the response in the netherlands - all I can say is they have a pretty big right-wing element - since the number of people who were outraged by it was quite huge. There were demonstrations in the street, burning of mosques, etc.

Note the following is from a Socialist site which blasts the "right-wing' government of the Netherlands.

Large protests at killing

The death of Theo van Gogh has unleashed a mixture of moods in Dutch society. On the night of Theo van Gogh’s death an estimated 20,000 people protested against the killing in Dam Square, in central Amsterdam. The rally was called by the mayor of Amsterdam. Reportedly, many Muslims attended to show their opposition to the killing.

The murder of Theo van Gogh will lead to a heightening of racism and reactionary sentiments in society. But at the same time many Dutch people – including those who opposed many of Theo van Gogh’s opinions - fear the killing indicates a further step in the erosion of democratic rights and freedom of expression in a society where these rights are highly valued. The right wing government and politicians, however, are cynically trying to channel the shock and revulsion at the death of Theo van Gogh to further their interests. As the Dutch Offensief (CWI) commented earlier this week:

"It is especially cynical to hear representatives of the establishment come out and talk about the violations of freedom of expression. They are responsible for the increased tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims in the Netherlands. They are responsible for a more hard-line policy on immigrants, as becomes clear when you look at their plans to deport 26,000 asylum seekers. They are also responsible for the increased gap between rich and poor. A period of growing hatred against immigrants was created by consecutive governments and many politicians."

- International Socialist Voice

So tell me - if the Netherlands has a democracy and they have a so called "right wing government" - isn't it the people who voted them in? I'm just curious as to who voted the politicians in.

This is what the US Consulate in the Netherlands said...

The U.S. Consulate General in Amsterdam wishes to inform Americans of security concerns due to recent events in the Netherlands. Since July 9, 2004, the Dutch government has implemented heightened security measures in response to concerns of terrorist activity, and police counter-terrorist operations are ongoing. In addition, since the murder of public figure Theo van Gogh on November 2, 2004, there have been a series of protests and attacks directed at mosques and Islamic schools in the Netherlands, plus arson attacks on several churches. In light of the most recent events and potential for unrest in addition to continuing security concerns, U.S. citizens in the Netherlands are encouraged to monitor media reports, reminded to maintain a high level of vigilance, and to take appropriate steps to increase their security awareness.

We wish to remind American citizens that even demonstrations intended to be peaceful can turn confrontational and possibly escalate into violence. American citizens are therefore urged to avoid the areas of demonstrations if possible, and to exercise caution if within the vicinity of any demonstrations.

[Spock]

go J.D.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i have one view, and one view only, immigration is good, diversity of population is good, there should be no boundaries between different nations, and we should all strive to work together for the betterment of the human race, for the benefit of all peoples of all nations. racists, bigots and tories should be banned.