Education

[katya]

Originally Posted by Mari

We have a NCLB-policy here too since 2004. The teachers in interviewed for class didn't seem to have a lot of problems with it. Though those were primary education teachers.
Here schools are divided into different levels after primary education, so people usually end up in the right level for them, based on a test in their final year and the recommendation of the teacher, so in secondary education NCLB has little to no effect.
The teachers in prim. ed. say they usually divide classes up in groups so they can take the time to explain things more thoroughly to the children who do not understand it all yet. Pretty much every school also has a remedial teacher, who helps with problems like dyslexia, or ADHD.
Of course there are also special schools for children with that sort of problem. There are at least 4 different sorts of special ed. but parents often don't want their children to go to such a school. Still, 3 out of those 4 are normal schools.

What exactly is the NCLB policy there, Mari? I would imagine it's a lot different than in America. And most teachers I know here hate it. One of the reasons is because of the increased standardized testing. The whole "teach to the test" thing. Do you have that in the Netherlands, too?

What is everyone's opinions on standardized testing anyway?

[The Gaffer]

I think it's essential. We have to be able to evaluate the performance of our educational system, so we need outcome measures. To be valid, these need to be comparable across different settings and educational approaches.

I only have a problem with "teach to the test" if the test doesn't have external validity. That is, if the test is kinda arbitrary, and people are learning stuff that's only useful in the test, then it's a waste of time. If the test is actually testing educational attainment, then "teach to the test" will also end up in just "teaching".

[Draken]

Teaching to the test when the outcome is high stakes to the student is indeed fine. Teaching to the test when it's high stakes to the school leads to "hey let's put everyone in for Vocational Paper Clip Sorting (Intermediate), it's sod all good but they'll all ace the exam and we'll look like a great school".

The problem in the UK at least has been using grades to judge schools by means of league tables. Not only has this wasted money and effort in setting up an inspection industry to agonise over the results of "so what?" exams like Key Stage 3, it has also led to the myth that a) parents have genuine choice in schooling (whereas they really have whatever choice their bank balance or ability to move house gives them) and that b) schools can be viewed as football teams, just one good manager away from being champions.

As to making big improvements in education - well that's a heck of a job, and schools are only a part of it. In most Western countries kids are happy in school and learn well up until the transition to secondary education, where for most of them the important factor becomes their peers. With Western culture leaning towards the individual, attitude to learning suffers, and can often only be re-engaged by promising future rewards.

By contrast many Eastern cultures put a far higher value on education for its own sake, with kids remaining motivated throughout their school careers. I heard a talk by an academic who had been researching this in Russia - he found just one teenage boy who rejected school and wished he could leave. When asked why he said "Because I want to change the world NOW... whereas I feel like Oblomov, you know the character in the book by Goncharov...?" As the academic noted, in Russia even the educational drop-outs can't help but make allusions to 19th century literarture!

[Mari]

Katya, the policy is to have kids in regular education for as far as possible. Often classes work in groups or are put to work after a brief explanation of things. The teacher then has time to help the children who have problems. But there is also a lot of attention to the child's special needs nowadays and the resource for those needs are there. Children with special needs get funded by the government in that the school gets money to make the improvements necessary for the child. For example for children who need stimuli-reduction screens can be bought, or headphones, but also remedial teachers are funded through this. Schools who have these sort of children get guidance from an external bureau and teachers can go to classes in orthopedagogy (which is a class I'm taking now by the way. Fun fun fun )
Of course some schools do better at this than others and there are schools who sort of specialize in this. For that reason one of my cousins with a visual handicap goes to a normal school, but there the stairs are painted in bright colours just for her and other adjustments are made. Schools cannot say they do not want to change for special needs children, but there are schools who welcome it and those who don't. If it is found that your child has special needs, from dyslexia to personality disorders and whatever, it will be concluded by an external bureau who will also advice the parents on schools and which action to take.

That all said, as I think I've said more often, after primary education the children are divided into levels. So children who have trouble studying will not have to go to the same school on the same level as gifted children. (Which of course has a good and bad side depending on loads of factors) As you might see there are big advantages to it, but special needs children can get 'lost' in the confusion with this transfer. But I have no idea on how it is handled in secondary education to be honest. I know there are schools who welcome children who need more or different attention and schools who think it's all well as long as they graduate eventually. Lot of it depends on the parents too.

I'm not sure if I answered your question. If I haven't exactly, please ask me more
Oh, and with 'special needs children' I don't mean the label of special needs, just mean children who need more than the regular sort of attention.
Either way, schools are more and more often operating on the assumption that education needs to be tailored to every individual child and not that the child has to adapt to education as it is.
Hope I made sense. Great thread by the way.

[Curufin]

Standardized testing is dangerous. People learn in different ways, and some people can take tests, while others can't. If people are judged and their future is affected by how they do on standardized tests, a lot of children who could do well at intellectual pursuits will be left out.

Take my brother, for instance. My brother was put in LD classes and treated like an idiot for most of his grade school and high school career, because he has a problem processing words, and his spelling is atrocious. They tried to hold him back several times, and basically told him he was stupid.

This is my brother - who was reading Dante, Steinbeck and Vonnegut for fun when he was thirteen years old.

But he did horribly at standardized tests that continuously asked him about spelling, etc.

When he got into college, into a more personalized environment that didn't concentrate so highly on standardized testing, he graduated with honors.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I think it's essential. We have to be able to evaluate the performance of our educational system, so we need outcome measures. To be valid, these need to be comparable across different settings and educational approaches.

I only have a problem with "teach to the test" if the test doesn't have external validity. That is, if the test is kinda arbitrary, and people are learning stuff that's only useful in the test, then it's a waste of time. If the test is actually testing educational attainment, then "teach to the test" will also end up in just "teaching".

Or if the tests are decided by at least 50 committees and have at least 50 standards, because that's how the educational system is run?

[Ilfirin]

Education, yeah right, a means of making the child a responsible and morally upright citizen, while imparting necessary knowledge to foster the development of the individual, the society and the humanity so that eventual prosperity can be attained.

Its accepted that schools are meant for that. I first learnt to lie when I was may be 5 yrs old, in school. I first leanrt to abuse others, in school.I first learnt to scheme against the people I hate, in school. Some people learnt more, stealing, et al at an age , when they could not even spell it. The list of such moral and psychological enlightenment during schooling is quite endless.

But of course, if I put on my rose tinted glasses and look at it closely, its not that bad, especially in my country, where education is not even a fundamental right, which means that 20% of the ppl do not even start schooling at the right age. Where, teaching, as a profession is chosen after all the options are exhausted, where 95% of the teachers for Pre-University courses (In my country, schooling is for ten years, pre university for 2 years and then comes the graduation courses) are totally humiliated, booed and derided by a class of 120 students(right! Imagine 120 students , ONE teacher), every day, every class, every place. And I havent even started on the quality of the education and its concomitants.

But, frankly, all I can do is sit in a comfortable AC environment and spend a few minutes in typing my thoughts and also I have got a cricket match to watch you see

Ilfirin

[The Gaffer]

Curufin: in that case, the tests are wrong. I've also experienced the opposite: where evaluation is based on no tests at all, and it is worse.

Sis: maybe your system is run like that, in which case it sounds knackered. Here, most of the interface between (national) standards/tests and the pupil's brain is handled at the school level. Puts a LOT of strain on the teachers, but they do OK I think.

Are you in India, Illfrin? If so, I trust you are enjoying your team's ritual manshaming of Australia and now England.

[katya]

Ilifrin-
There are many goals of education, and I have to admit, my eyes were opened up a little bit when I realized what many of them were. For example, preparing the children for the work force. Why? So that they can compete in the global economy and help the U.S. get back in the race. Basically, so that the people behind it can get richer. Another reason is teaching kids the kind of morals and ideals of a good citizen, so that they will carry out their duties as a citizen. It can be used for nationalistic brainwashing, sure. Not so sure about stealing/lying etc. I learned those before I ever set foot in a school. I think that's more to do with people being together in general than with schools. Jails are way worse.

But, just because there are problems and (imo) impure motives behind schools now, we can't get rid of education altogether. So what do you think should be the purpose of education?

By the way, maybe it's different in your country, but I didn't go into education because there were no other options. I went into education because there is nothing else I want to do nearly as much as I want to teach. I love teaching (or what I've experienced of it so far, in tutoring, etc.), and despite the poor pay and conditions, it's what I really want to do. I'm smart enough that I could be almost anything I wanted, but I want to be a teacher.

[Ilfirin]

Originally Posted by katya

.

But, just because there are problems and (imo) impure motives behind schools now, we can't get rid of education altogether.

I never meant any of that. To put it directly, I have utmost respect for teachers(not the I-teach-because-I-could-not-get-any-other-job kind), genuine teachers, and I give utmost importance to education, because I believe that it is the first step towards any kind of development. My cynicism about the schools teaching the right morals was to highlight the importance of the role of a teacher in lower primary classes. And of course the point about teaching as a profession being the last resort is, to put it mildly, an exaggeration. Some absolutely love it and take it up. My mother is one of them.

All I was trying to say was that, here in my country, I have a problem with the education system. I have got complaints against it at all levels. The inability of the Government and the administration to make sure that every child goes into a school at the right time, the plight of the government run schools etc. are some of the major issues (for the developing countries).

Then the quality of education, the system of testing et al is also talked about. There has been some change, yeah, but the pace is very slow. For eg: When I did my schooling, corporal punishment was prevalent in the majority of schools. Imagine the sight of a 6-7 yr old getting rapped on knuckles because he was caught talking to a friend in the class! All the kid was interested in was the new spiderman sticker on the lunch box. Thankfully its totally abolished now.

The quality of education and more importantly the knowledge levels of the teachers is another issue. I studied Engineering in a college which is known for its Quality of Education. First day, we had a teacher(who had joined the college just before we did) who taught us completely wrong concepts. From the next day, a text book was brought and read from. Its not literature that we are studying! Now Engineering is a professional course, very, very common here. Every year around 200 thousand students graduate as engineers. I could clearly imagine how good the quality would be in these 500 odd engineering colleges, considering my college ranks 10th overall(in my country ie.). Its just a niche set of professors and the students who give the college the name and fame it currently has. Very few colleges stand out. There are hardly 1-2% of people who move into research and development area, after science and engineering.It clearly speaks about the quality. Its the same in all the other fields. Studies of literature and culture is slowly dying here.

I can just go on, but today, education hardly seems like a concern when people are getting blown to bits,et al.on a regular basis. Yes, Im talking about a terrorist strike in the financial capital of my country, yesterday. The worst the country has ever seen. Ironically education seems to have played a part in that as well. After all the brain washing of an ordinary citizen into a human-hating fanatic is what they call education.

Ilfirin

P.S: Gaffer: yeah right. It was hardly a ritual against Australia. Six years it took to regain the cup. Against England, yesterdays events in the country saved them from a 7-0 drubbing. The team must be back in England.

P.P.S: Btw, I love Trigonometry and (gasp) Calculus. So, will I be an outcast?