Holocaust Denial

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

That's pretty much what I have been DYING to ask. This thread really annoys the crap out of me; I don't know why but even seeing the title of it gets me super-annoyed.

could that be the point

nah

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Funny you should mention exactly that. My great-grandmother believed to her death that the moon landing had been faked by the Americans to give the Russians the middle-finger so to speak.

There was quite a fun movie on that - I think it was called Capricorn 1. The space program was in jeopardy because the last rocket blew up and killed people, and if this one didn't work, the program would get canned. So everything was looking good, but at the last second, an engineer found a fatal flaw that would make the rocket blow up, so they faked the landing ... and of course, had to dispose of the people after the successful "landing" ... quite a fun movie - and as a bit of trivia, O.J. Simpson was one of the astronauts!

Back to semi-on-topic - how many Armenians were killed by Turks?

And as far as why this topic - Besides being an awful thing, perhaps the Holocaust was one of the first mass genocides to really be broadcast worldwide via mass media? And that made it more horrible, because we saw images? I still remember pictures I saw over 35 years ago - they're burned in my memory.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Back to semi-on-topic - how many Armenians were killed by Turks?

That I don't know, but I can tell you this - all my Armenian friends absolutely desPISE the Turks, I mean pure and unbridled hatred. So, based on that, I'd guess it'd be safe to say a LOT.

Here's an article to point about the Turks/Armenians question:

http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/anatolia1915.html

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

There was quite a fun movie on that - I think it was called Capricorn 1.

Off topic, but yeah, I've seen it. Good movie too.

Back to semi-on-topic - how many Armenians were killed by Turks?

I thought about half a million.

And as far as why this topic - Besides being an awful thing, perhaps the Holocaust was one of the first mass genocides to really be broadcast worldwide via mass media? And that made it more horrible, because we saw images? I still remember pictures I saw over 35 years ago - they're burned in my memory.

The images are indeed horrible on their own, but I think the vast scope and unimaginable ruthlessness with which it was carried out that, have attributed to the impact. 6 million people... that's the entire population of Flanders.

[Captain Stern]

Before I begin let me just say that from the evidence I've seen I think the Holocaust did indeed happen and that I think it was as awful, horrible and tragic as anyone here thinks it was. I'm also a firm believer in the lesson that we who forget what history tell's us are doomed to repeat it. However I find it disheartening but also typical that those who can't know the whole truth believe in the absloutes that they've been taught to believe in. If you weren't at the death camps yourself to witness what happened then you can't flatly proclaim that the holocaust happened and subsequently denounce those who question the event as bigots, anti semites or criminals. What would happen to society if we weren't allowed to question the events of history? We are urged to question all knowledge yet, almost uniquely, if you question the authenticity of the holocaust you're guaranteed to be labelled those names that I mentioned earlier. Isn't that suspicious in itself?

With all the wealth of intelligence and recources at the disposal of so many organizations in the world is it really so inconceivable that an event such as the holocaust could have been faked? Bear in mind also that for a people who's population is so small, the Jewish people are EXTREMELY prolific and talented. You need only search on the internet.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

With all the wealth of intelligence and recources at the disposal of so many organizations in the world is it really so inconceivable that an event such as the holocaust could have been faked?

Exactly what aspect do you think could have been faked?

In general, I'd say faking the Holocaust is fairly high up on the list of things that are inconceivable.

[Captain Stern]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Exactly what aspect do you think could have been faked?

In general, I'd say faking the Holocaust is fairly high up on the list of things that are inconceivable.

Maybe you're right, or maybe you're underestimating what mankind can achieve

[Rían]

what aspect do you think was faked?

[Captain Stern]

Well, for example, the largest portions of the media are controlled by Jewish persons. Fact. If you control the media, you can do a LOT.

[Captain Stern]

I can certainly offer a motive for the faking of the holocaust. The Jews have been crapped upon by everyone for thousands of years. If the holocaust did indeed happen then the Jewish people logically came to the conclusion that they could not trust the safety of their race to any one nation. So, after the war was over they took Israel so they could protect themselves.

What if they realised this before World War 2 began? Anti Semitism was rampant as always. Perhaps they guessed that, unless they acted, the Jewish race was doomed? Then WW2 happened. An opportunity perhaps? Could they have realistically expected to procure the sanctuary of their very own country without the tremendous fuel that would be provided by the world wide outrage that was caused by the holocaust?

Another 'bonus' you could call it, is that, even now, 60 years on, whenever Israel is in trouble, Germany continually hand them freebies because of whatever happened between them and their people.

I just don't think anything is black and white where us despicable humans are concerned.

[Lotesse]

Wow.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

However I find it disheartening but also typical that those who can't know the whole truth believe in the absloutes that they've been taught to believe in. If you weren't at the death camps yourself to witness what happened then you can't flatly proclaim that the holocaust happened and subsequently denounce those who question the event as bigots, anti semites or criminals. What would happen to society if we weren't allowed to question the events of history? We are urged to question all knowledge yet, almost uniquely, if you question the authenticity of the holocaust you're guaranteed to be labelled those names that I mentioned earlier. Isn't that suspicious in itself?

I agree that one should question reliability of events in history. But I think there's a difference between questioning and claiming that the holocaust is an invention of the jewish mind... especially when the evidence show there was a mass murder of 6 millions jews, and many more Germans, Polish, Jypsies, etc.
There were jews in the death camps that survived. Jews that worked in getting bodies out of the chambers and burning them. Again one can say it was all a scheme but really if you can't believe a man that was in there when it happened who can you believe..?

With all the wealth of intelligence and recources at the disposal of so many organizations in the world is it really so inconceivable that an event such as the holocaust could have been faked? Bear in mind also that for a people who's population is so small, the Jewish people are EXTREMELY prolific and talented. You need only search on the internet.

Yes... it is. Unless you can mysteriously spirit away 6 million jews. Or 3,000,000 whom we know their names. The 7 tons of human ashes in Majdanek. Obviously no one can claim that Hitler didn't want Germany to be "judenrein", which was part of his ideology, and later actions.

There is a lot of evidence, German documents that tell what was planned and what actually happened... you could say it is all fake, but added with Hitler's ideology and the solid evidence shown above... combined with people's testimonies of what happened... it seems highly unlikely that it's all made up.

[Captain Stern]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I agree that one should question reliability of events in history.

I'm glad there seem's to be someone here that does

But I think there's a difference between questioning and claiming that the holocaust is an invention of the jewish mind... especially when the evidence show there was a mass murder of 6 millions jews, and many more Germans, Polish, Jypsies, etc.
There were jews in the death camps that survived. Jews that worked in getting bodies out of the chambers and burning them. Again one can say it was all a scheme but really if you can't believe a man that was in there when it happened who can you believe..?

EDIT: I agree, there is a difference between questioning and claiming that the holocaust didn't happen. Yet those who claim the holocaust did in fact happen, who have no undeniable proof that it did, should learn that it's wrong to dictate that it did, however obvious it might seem to them.

As to the film evidence, how can we be absloutely sure all this was genuine? Might they have been actors, nationalists, or something else? Did journalists descend in their thousands on these sites? The rare film sequences we've seen... Well, I hate to say it, but we've all seen Schindler's List haven't we?

The written evidence. How can we really know they weren't faked? Especially in that day and age. If there was suspicion these documents were faked, what effort could have been made to analyze them? Advanced Computer Analysis? Now that we have these advanced tools at our disposal do we make any effort to delve into such a political mine field? No. Even if we wanted to, do you think such documents are lying around by now?

The rare interviews of the people interred. How can we know that they weren't influenced by an early equivelant of the mossad agency (or genuine mossad later on)? Perhaps, "shudder", this cover up was the precursor to the CIA MKULTRA project. What did inspire the sudden interest in mind control among the Russians and the Americans in the aftermath of the 2nd World War?

Yes... it is. Unless you can mysteriously spirit away 6 million jews. Or 3,000,000 whom we know their names. The 7 tons of human ashes in Majdanek. Obviously no one can claim that Hitler didn't want Germany to be "judenrein", which was part of his ideology, and later actions.

There is a lot of evidence, German documents that tell what was planned and what actually happened....

This seems to me what could be faked easiest of all. Consider the size of Intelligence agenciens, the money that's poured into them, the clout they have, and then the potential propoganda advantages of 'revealing' the German War effort as told by the victors. Population sizes can easily be doctored by allied agiencies..

but added with Hitler's ideology

Hitler's Ideology. How can we even be sure of the the accuracy of the reports on the most reviled man in history? History is written by the vitors, and information written at the time of his life was geared towards making him a monster to serve the goals of his enemies. I'm sure we've all heard about the incestuous mother-son relationship, the hitler-niece relationship with the urinating on the face sexual perversion, the flatulence, the general physical deficiency.... Isn't it odd how the most hated villain of human history had so many disgusting traits? To be made a charicature? Are our governments, our corporations, really so trustworthy?

[Rían]

One can question anything that happened in history, but IMO the collusion involved, including multiple countries, is just too mindblowingly big to make it realistic. As I said, IMO, faking the Holocaust is fairly high up on the list of things that are inconceivable. Not impossible, just inconceivable. We all have to go on faith when we're talking about historical events, but as far as those type of events go, IMO it's a pretty sure bet it happened.

[HOBBIT]

Captain Stern, are you saying what I think that you are saying? My opinion of you has dropped immeasurably.


edit: I posted that before I read that you had "Before I begin let me just say that from the evidence I've seen I think the Holocaust did indeed happen and that I think it was as awful, horrible and tragic as anyone here thinks it was. I'm also a firm believer in the lesson that we who forget what history tell's us are doomed to repeat it."

I know that those were your opening words, but I sometimes read things out of order or skim. I skimmed past that.

From the rest of your posts, it does/did seem that you are denying the existence of the Holocaust.

And much of what you posted is highly silly and offensive (yes both at same time).

Because while you thankfully personally believe that the Holocaust happened, you still are saying - here are some good reasons why other ppl might think that the Jews just made it up. You call the crap you posted plausible. It certainly is not.


It is highly ridiculous. Highly insulting.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

[...]However I find it disheartening but also typical that those who can't know the whole truth believe in the absloutes that they've been taught to believe in. If you weren't at the death camps yourself to witness what happened then you can't flatly proclaim that the holocaust happened and subsequently denounce those who question the event as bigots, anti semites or criminals. What would happen to society if we weren't allowed to question the events of history? [...]

IMO it is not feasable to believe only that which you have seen with your own eyes. In the end even your own eyes can deceive you, and who will you believe or trust then? Have you ever seen the planet Jupiter with your own eyes? Do you reckon it's all a cover-up by NASA because they liked the idea of a nine-planet system better than an mere eight planets? I think that is even far more probable and possible than somebody faking the Holocaust.

It's one thing to be critical about whether historical events went as we believed they did, it's another to proclaim they never happened and that all evidence there of must be faked.

[Captain Stern]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

IMO it is not feasable to believe only that which you have seen with your own eyes. In the end even your own eyes can deceive you, and who will you believe or trust then? Have you ever seen the planet Jupiter with your own eyes? Do you reckon it's all a cover-up by NASA because they liked the idea of a nine-planet system better than an mere eight planets? I think that is even far more probable and possible than somebody faking the Holocaust.

The difference is that it's hard to think of a reason why Nasa would want to fake such a thing. I have to disagree though with your oppinion that it's more probable and possible to fake that than the holocaust.

Oh and on a related note, there's always the moon landing :P Can you explain to me how that flag was moving as if there was wind!?

Maybe we really shouldn't trust anything.

It's one thing to be critical about whether historical events went as we believed they did, it's another to proclaim they never happened and that all evidence there of must be faked.

I agree.

Maybe I should once again stress that personally I think it's highly probable (remember I don't really 'believe' in much) that the holocaust happened. I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate. There can't be anything wrong with that, surely? And If you're wondering why I'm doing it... well, I love conspiracy theories

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

The difference is that it's hard to think of a reason why Nasa would want to fake such a thing. I have to disagree though with your oppinion that it's more probable and possible to fake that than the holocaust.

It's not the reason why that makes a presumed fake work or not, it's the mechanics involved.

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

Maybe we really shouldn't trust anything.

Funny, I was already waiting for when you were going to go Mulder on me.

[Captain Stern]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

It's not the reason why that makes a presumed fake work or not, it's the mechanics involved.

What about "where there's a will there's a way"?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Captain Stern

Oh and on a related note, there's always the moon landing :P Can you explain to me how that flag was moving as if there was wind!?

the moon landing hoax demystified

Everyone has seen the video of astronauts planting a US flag on the Moon. You can see the flag flexing and rippling. How can that be? There's no breeze on the Moon. But then, there's no atmosphere, either. When the astronauts planted the flagpole they twisted it back and forth to sink it into the lunar soil. On the Earth, that would have made the flag "wave" for a few seconds, then stop. But that's because the flag pushes against air as it flaps, and the air slows it down. On the Moon, there was no air to stop the flag's motion, so it continued, just as Newton's First Law of physics says it should. So of course the cloth flag waved and rippled beneath the metal rod holding it out.