Gollum and Sauron

[Gordis]

To be exact there are four versions of the Hunt for the Ring (UT).
In all the versions Sauron, after threatening the nazgul, sent them to Saruman.
In A and B Saruman denied knowledge of the Shire but it was Grima who betrayed Saruman and told them "The land of the Halflings (is) west through the Gap of Rohan yonder, and then north and a little west, until the next great river bars the way; the Greyflood it is called. Thence from the crossing at Tharbad the old road will lead you to the borders. 'The Shire,' they call it"
In C Saruman told them that the Shire "is northwest from here some six hundred miles, on the borders of the seaward Elvish country".
In A, B and C versions later in Eriador the nazgul captured a Dunlending spy of Saruman with maps and lists of names including Baggins.

[Gordis]

Another very strange thing (see the UT:The Hunt for the Ring)

According to Aragorn Gollum was taken at nightfall on February 1st. Hoping to escape detection by any of Sauron's spies he drove Gollum through the north end of the Emyn Muil, and crossed Anduin just above Sam Gebir. Driftwood was often cast up there on the shoals by the east shore, and binding Gollum to a log he swam across with him, and continued his journey north by tracks as westerly as he could find through the skirts of Fangorn, and so over Limlight, then over Nimrodel and Silverlode through the eaves of Lórien, 5 and then on, avoiding Moria and Dimrill Dale, over Gladden until he came near the Carrock. There he crossed Anduin again, with the help of the Beornings, and passed into the Forest. The whole journey, on foot, was not much short of nine hundred miles, and this Aragorn accomplished with weariness in fifty days, reaching Thranduil on the twenty-first of March.

Now Why did Aragorn bring Gollum to Thranduil's realm at all? Why didn't he stop in Lorien? Was there something Aragorn and Gandalf wanted to keep hidden from Galadriel? Perhaps Gandalf suspected her of wanting the Ring?

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Another very strange thing (see the UT:The Hunt for the Ring)

Now Why did Aragorn bring Gollum to Thranduil's realm at all? Why didn't he stop in Lorien? Was there something Aragorn and Gandalf wanted to keep hidden from Galadriel? Perhaps Gandalf suspected her of wanting the Ring?

Is this one for the Olmer School or one for the Tolkien back-story back-peddaling brigade?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Is this one for the Olmer School or one for the Tolkien back-story back-peddaling brigade?

I can easily figure out Olmer's answer. I tend to think along the same lines myself .
But what do other 100% normal good Mooters think?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He did pass throught Lorien. Remember he leaves a message for Gandalf with Galadriel. As for why he did not leave Gollum with Galadriel, I do not know.

[strider8]

Originally Posted by gordis

Let's have some talk about Gollum and his relationship with Sauron. Gollum's story after he lost his ring and before his appearance in Moria is not too well known. How was he able to follow hobbits to Esgaroth? Why did he go to Mordor? Has he become Shelob's friend before or after his capture? How was he captured? Has he been to Barad Dur? What did he really told Sauron under torture and how much he concealed? Has he escaped or was he released and, if so, what for? Why wasn't he followed? Or was he? Why did Sauron want him again after his talk with Gandalf?
Any ideas?

Which question do you want answering first?

[Gordis]

Whichever you find interesting, strider8!

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Remember he leaves a message for Gandalf with Galadriel.

Actually I don't remember that... Where is it from?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Gandalf

"At once I took my leave of Denethor, but even as I went northwards messages came to me out of Lorien that Aragorn had passed that way, and that he had found the creature called Gollum.

Fellowship Of the Ring, Council of Elrond, page 247.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Fellowship Of the Ring, Council of Elrond, page 247.

hey i don't want to nit-pick here but that could be read in two ways: it does not necessarily mean he (aragorn withGollum) went to Lorien and left a message in lorien to be sent to gandalf : it could mean Galadariel heard word via any number of sources (or saw via conventional or other means) this information and subsequently passed it onto Mithrandir.

what does your source say TD? can it be determined one way or the other from it?

ps (edit: it says passed that way, not went to??)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It's meant to. I would say that Aragorn passed through Lorien. He was a keen hunter, and would not have been seen or caught against his own wish IMO.

[Gordis]

Thanks for the Quote TD. But still it is strange: why didn't Aragorn stop in Lorien? Especially considering Gandalf was to the South? Why go a very long way to Mirkwood and oblidge Gandalf to follow him? And Dol Guldur spies saw him in Mirkwood! Had he stopped in Lorien, Gollum's capture would not be detected by Sauron and the Ringwraiths would not be sent out so early!

I think that Gandalf didn't want any of the White counsil learn that the Ring was found.

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by gordis

Another very strange thing (see the UT:The Hunt for the Ring)

Now Why did Aragorn bring Gollum to Thranduil's realm at all? Why didn't he stop in Lorien? Was there something Aragorn and Gandalf wanted to keep hidden from Galadriel? Perhaps Gandalf suspected her of wanting the Ring?

You could think of it as wanting to keep Gollum away from Galadriel so she would not be able to learn any useful information from gollum concerning Sauron, the Ring, and anything else.

I think that Gollum was "supposed to be better protected" in Mirkwood than Lothlorien from any escape attempts. (Not well enough it would seem. ) Lothlorien was surrounded by more unfriendly occupied lands than the elves in Mirkwood, IMO.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

Lothlorien was surrounded by more unfriendly occupied lands than the elves in Mirkwood, IMO.

I think it is just the other way round. The Power of Dol Guldur reached already the Forest road and poor Thranduil, unlike Galadriel, had no ring to help his defences.

[Butterbeer]

to be honest i think it was just a plot server to get Legolas down to the Council of Elrond.

otherwise it's a bit nonsensical: the best argument would be indeed that gandalf was suddenly being very cautious: but this doesnt really add up when he legs off to tell everything he knows to saruman (initially this was his purpose: ok maybe not everything!) when he should be making the ring safer in Imladris first.

why was gandalf suprised the nine were on the move North? he knew or summised what Gollum had told Sauron: surely he'd be expecting Sau to send his servants north t'seek for (or in) the Shire for "baggins"?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

otherwise it's a bit nonsensical: the best argument would be indeed that gandalf was suddenly being very cautious: but this doesnt really add up when he legs off to tell everything he knows to saruman (initially this was his purpose: ok maybe not everything!) when he should be making the ring safer in Imladris first.
why was gandalf suprised the nine were on the move North? he knew or summised what Gollum had told Sauron: surely he'd be expecting Sau to send his servants north t'seek for (or in) the Shire for "baggins"?

Very good points. I believe Gendalf kept the ring secret from all members of the White Counsil, including Erlond and Galadriel.
IMO he was not going to tell Saruman about the Ring, only ask him how to repel nazgul (?)
Yes, sure, knowing what Gollum told to Sauron (Shire, Baggins) Gandalf should have grabbed Frodo immediately and taken him to Imladris. Leaving him in the Shire alone was foolish, and much more so when he learned that the Nine were abroad. And he felt they were abroad even before Rhadagast told him (what was that, BTW -felt their approach through his Ring?)

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

He did pass throught Lorien. Remember he leaves a message for Gandalf with Galadriel. As for why he did not leave Gollum with Galadriel, I do not know.

I suspect that it was too close to Moria and possible rescue, and that Thranduil's realm would not be as watched.

[Butterbeer]

mind you Gollum was in his own way a ring bearer

so he'd be able to see galdariel's ring?
she might not like that

and also maybe " evil things do not come here" : maybe they would not have him?

As for the rescue / escape thing: that didn't quite work out hey?

lets look at tharanduil's "colditz style" guard's R us record shall we:

last known guard jobs:

Gollum: current status: escaped:
Guard report form: For future ref: do not let him climb trees unshakled etc

A whole Bunch of Dwarves (Thorin et al) Current status: Escaped
Guard report form: For future ref: do not drink on the job:

*Butterbeer sips glass of wine*

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

As for the rescue / escape thing: that didn't quite work out hey? lets look at tharanduil's "colditz style" guard's R us record shall we:
last known guard jobs:
Gollum: current status: escaped:
Guard report form: For future ref: do not let him climb trees unshakled etc
A whole Bunch of Dwarves (Thorin et al) Current status: Escaped
Guard report form: For future ref: do not drink on the job:
*Butterbeer sips glass of wine*

Hey, Butterbeer you said it was BEER and not WINE that helped strenghten your stamina!
About Gollum's escape. I feel strong doubts about the veracity of Legolas's tale. It sounds far too silly. Gandalf had a strong premonition or foreknowledge about Gollum's future role in the Quest. Could it be that he asked Elves to release the little wretch?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I suspect that it was too close to Moria and possible rescue, and that Thranduil's realm would not be as watched.

Moria did not care about the little wretch, because it was never belonged to Sauron and never had been under his order.Through the history of the War of the Rings Moria had never been launching any assaults on Lothlorien ,while Dol Guldur, which was much farther, had been attacking three times.
Moria also did not aid Sauron in his battles against other “Free folk” of the Middle -earth , which shows that later Moria had been living according to its own rules, being quite independent in the decisions on the associations with another races, particularily, with the Elves.
Agree, that the Golden Woods possibly had been watched from both sides: Moria and Dol-Guldur, but hauling screaming and kicking Gollum through the whole lenght of Mirkwood wouldn't call an inconspicuous way. He could have been rescued in the delivery process.
Mithrand1r is right: Aragorn would rather broadcast Gollum capture through the full of enemies woods, risking to get ambushed, then to turn for help to the Lady of Light.It could be explained only by unwillingness to share the information carried by Gollum.

BTW, glad to see you are back!I guess the school year is about to roll-up and you have more free time. Stick around.
BTW

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Hey, Butterbeer you said it was BEER and not WINE that helped strenghten your stamina!
About Gollum's escape. I feel strong doubts about the veracity of Legolas's tale. It sounds far too silly. Gandalf had a strong premonition or foreknowledge about Gollum's future role in the Quest. Could it be that he asked Elves to release the little wretch?

well, in the Entmoot archive that for future generations shall been seen that we all are but passing (or strolling) players, that is the Horses thread, you'll see i am taking a first sip of a recommended red ( i assume its a red?) and drinking a rather old Nurn ...


For factual accuracy, i am currently sipping a red, when i wrote that above i was sipping a chilled white, currently in the Office fridge we have a chilled Grolsch, a very cold Stella and outside the fridge a half empty bottle of red (Not NURN 2947 though) .. oh yes and a pretty empty bottle of White too!

NB: for a nice change we also have some milk too.

but yes: when down the Pony, where talking through the night is an art-form (or formless artistry of a tolietry nature)... yeasty beer is the one for sheer endurance: if the Royal mail used it more the Postal service would be much better!



...er... i think Gandalf saw ahead but didn't actually try to prompt fate or interefere so pointedly: he was perhaps trusting to a deeply felt instinct on this and not trying to second guess and MAKE things happen in this particular regard.