Churchill - Page 2

Janny · 11-11-2004, 04:46 PM

"My beloved Lloyd-George"? The man with 3 first names?

Draken · 11-12-2004, 12:17 PM

What interests me is that while he remained stubborn and single-minded (which turned from peace time vices into war time virtues), he did actually seem to learn from the mistakes he made at the Admiralty in WW1. From being seen as interfering at almost every level at the Admiralty, as Prime Minister he showed much greater faith in the judgement of others - too much, he felt, when it came to the loss of Singapore. Apart from replacing Auchinleck with Montgomery after First El Alamein, I can't recall him second-guessing his generals too much at all.

I suppose the one lesson he DID fail to learn was that there was no 'soft underbelly' to continental Europe!

inked · 11-12-2004, 12:27 PM

AND the one lesson he taught before being discharged by the British electorate was "we have bought peace for Europe for the next 50 years only".
He was right almost to the moment! The Iron Curtain fell and the ethnic genocide began anew just as he feared. Prescient and unlistened to, unfortunately. A great leader and a great humanitarian, who unwillingly yielded empire, his like is rare in the history of mankind.

Spock · 11-12-2004, 12:30 PM

Hear, hear!

***Earniel*** · 11-12-2004, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun-star

www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk is my favourite history reference site. They have a good article on Churchill here

This one isn't bad, though I'd recommend you ignore the rather silly first statement.

Thank you.

*goes off to educate herself somewhat*

sun-star · 11-12-2004, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janny

"My beloved Lloyd-George"? The man with 3 first names?

How many names do you think Churchill had? Bet it was more than 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

AND the one lesson he taught before being discharged by the British electorate was "we have bought peace for Europe for the next 50 years only".
He was right almost to the moment! The Iron Curtain fell and the ethnic genocide began anew just as he feared. Prescient and unlistened to, unfortunately.

I think it might have been Churchill who came up with the phrase 'Iron Curtain' - does anybody know? Anyway, he didn't really buy peace for Europe for more than a couple of years, what with the Cold War and everything, but that wasn't really his fault

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

A great leader and a great humanitarian, who unwillingly yielded empire, his like is rare in the history of mankind.

Great humanitarian? Why do you say that?

Janny · 11-12-2004, 05:59 PM

From somewhere in the baltic to... Tristre in the Adriatic an Iron Curtain has decended across Europe. I think it was coined by him...

Long names: Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

Count Comfect · 11-12-2004, 07:35 PM

Definitely did coin "Iron Curtain".

Has anyone ever read the letter he sent to the US author "Winston Churchill" who published at the same time as he did? It's hilarious - it basically hammers in the point that having them both publish under one name is bad "Winston Churchill would like to ask Winston Churchill if Winston Churchill..." and offers to publish (as he did ever after) as Winston Spencer (or Winston S.) Churchill.

Grey_Wolf · 11-13-2004, 06:37 AM

Since I'm in the process of completing my Winston Churchill's Second World War six part series, I was wondering, has anyone read his The Boer War and what, in that case, did you think of it?

Spock · 11-13-2004, 10:53 AM

Sir Winston said that phrase after the Yalta Conference.

inked · 11-13-2004, 03:21 PM

Winston Churchill, according to Barlett's FAMILIAR QUOTATIONS, uttered the famous 'iron curtain' speech at Westminster College, Fulton, Missouri, on March 5, 1946. The footnotes cite its usage as early as 1914 by Queen Elisabeth of Belgium, in 1915 by GW Crile describing France, V. Rozanov of Russia in 1918, EA Snowden in 1920 of Bolshevik Russia, 'the' Joseph Goebbels of the Third Reich about the USSR on February 23rd 1945, and Churchill's own prior use of it in a top-secret telegram to President Truman on 12 May 1945.

As well read as Churchill was he had probably come across the earlier uses before WWI (especially in regard to France), during the Bolshevik revolution and its subsequent Communist/Stalinist phases, and certainly the use by Goebbels as shown by his use of the term to President Truman. BUT I think it was the postWWII anxiety about the intentions of Stalinist USSR and the establishment of worldwide communism on the Stalinist model that caused this to catch on and remain so fixed in Free World consciousness. See, many generations (that of WWII, its hiers, grandheirs, and great-grandheirs KNOW Sir Winston said it!)

sun-star · 01-24-2005, 10:31 AM

Today is the 40th anniversary of Churchill's death. For anyone who's interested, Radio 4 are doing a series of commemorative programmes which looks very good:www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/churchill

Spock · 01-24-2005, 11:47 AM

Jolly good, and needed in these times. However, unless BBCA carries it we'll never see it here in the colonies.

jerseydevil · 01-24-2005, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock

Jolly good, and needed in these times. However, unless BBCA carries it we'll never see it here in the colonies.

That's funny - I always thought you lived in America.

Spock · 01-24-2005, 12:06 PM

It's a running joke that the Atlantic Ocean is called The Pond, and America (USA) is called "the colonies" by my generation. My friends in the UK all use the former and a few still the latter. Nothing unpatriotic here, just a smile amongst friends.

jerseydevil · 01-24-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock

It's a running joke that the Atlantic Ocean is called The Pond, and America (USA) is called "the colonies" by my generation. My friends in the UK all use the former and a few still the latter. Nothing unpatriotic here, just a smile amongst friends.

I know. But a lot of the time it's been used to indicate "you're beneath us and we still consider you a part of us". So I don't like hearing it - unless I know the person and know they are just fooling around. Like when I call Canada the 51st state. Nevermind - that doesn't really fit because they actually are the 51st state

. But sometimes "colonies" can be used in a friendly manner - but many do not use it in context.

My father's company was partially bought out by a british company - so I am aware of the use of the term "pond" and "the colonies". I had many personal dealings with the british - including going over to britain twice.

By the way - the Churchilll thing is broadcast online.

Spock · 01-24-2005, 12:18 PM

Ah well, I can understand your position. No downgrading amonst my friends merely kidding. Each love our own country and don't denegrate the others. As for the online broadcast, I'll pass as with a dial up connection here in the rural south, it just doesn't work.

Spock · 01-24-2005, 12:21 PM

..if you haven't yet, rent "Canadian Bacon" with John Candy. It speaks to your sentiments on this.

Janny · 01-24-2005, 01:35 PM

There's also a quiz... I couldn't find the link to it from sunny's link, but it's also on the Beeb.

Churchill Quiz

sun-star · 01-24-2005, 03:04 PM

I notice you don't tell us what you got, young man...

(I got 8. How am I supposed to know what Churchill thought of Gladstone? I really like the "sheep in sheep's clothing" though - I remember that from A-level History

)

11-11-2004, 04:46 PM	#21
Janny The Blobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...) Posts: 1,596	"My beloved Lloyd-George"? The man with 3 first names? __________________ Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton.

11-12-2004, 12:17 PM	#22
Draken Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, England Posts: 694	What interests me is that while he remained stubborn and single-minded (which turned from peace time vices into war time virtues), he did actually seem to learn from the mistakes he made at the Admiralty in WW1. From being seen as interfering at almost every level at the Admiralty, as Prime Minister he showed much greater faith in the judgement of others - too much, he felt, when it came to the loss of Singapore. Apart from replacing Auchinleck with Montgomery after First El Alamein, I can't recall him second-guessing his generals too much at all. I suppose the one lesson he DID fail to learn was that there was no 'soft underbelly' to continental Europe! __________________ I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I?

11-12-2004, 12:27 PM	#23
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	AND the one lesson he taught before being discharged by the British electorate was "we have bought peace for Europe for the next 50 years only". He was right almost to the moment! The Iron Curtain fell and the ethnic genocide began anew just as he feared. Prescient and unlistened to, unfortunately. A great leader and a great humanitarian, who unwillingly yielded empire, his like is rare in the history of mankind. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

11-12-2004, 12:30 PM	#24
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Hear, hear! __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

11-12-2004, 05:59 PM	#27
Janny The Blobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...) Posts: 1,596	From somewhere in the baltic to... Tristre in the Adriatic an Iron Curtain has decended across Europe. I think it was coined by him... Long names: Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. __________________ Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. Last edited by Janny : 11-14-2004 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Misspelt 'de Pfeffel'

11-12-2004, 07:35 PM	#28
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	Definitely did coin "Iron Curtain". Has anyone ever read the letter he sent to the US author "Winston Churchill" who published at the same time as he did? It's hilarious - it basically hammers in the point that having them both publish under one name is bad "Winston Churchill would like to ask Winston Churchill if Winston Churchill..." and offers to publish (as he did ever after) as Winston Spencer (or Winston S.) Churchill. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

11-13-2004, 06:37 AM	#29
Grey_Wolf Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mirkwood, well actually I live in North-west Scania, Sweden Posts: 9,481	Since I'm in the process of completing my Winston Churchill's Second World War six part series, I was wondering, has anyone read his The Boer War and what, in that case, did you think of it?

11-13-2004, 10:53 AM	#30
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Sir Winston said that phrase after the Yalta Conference. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

11-13-2004, 03:21 PM	#31
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Winston Churchill, according to Barlett's FAMILIAR QUOTATIONS, uttered the famous 'iron curtain' speech at Westminster College, Fulton, Missouri, on March 5, 1946. The footnotes cite its usage as early as 1914 by Queen Elisabeth of Belgium, in 1915 by GW Crile describing France, V. Rozanov of Russia in 1918, EA Snowden in 1920 of Bolshevik Russia, 'the' Joseph Goebbels of the Third Reich about the USSR on February 23rd 1945, and Churchill's own prior use of it in a top-secret telegram to President Truman on 12 May 1945. As well read as Churchill was he had probably come across the earlier uses before WWI (especially in regard to France), during the Bolshevik revolution and its subsequent Communist/Stalinist phases, and certainly the use by Goebbels as shown by his use of the term to President Truman. BUT I think it was the postWWII anxiety about the intentions of Stalinist USSR and the establishment of worldwide communism on the Stalinist model that caused this to catch on and remain so fixed in Free World consciousness. See, many generations (that of WWII, its hiers, grandheirs, and great-grandheirs KNOW Sir Winston said it!) __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 11-13-2004 at 03:23 PM.

01-24-2005, 10:31 AM	#32
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	Today is the 40th anniversary of Churchill's death. For anyone who's interested, Radio 4 are doing a series of commemorative programmes which looks very good:www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/churchill

01-24-2005, 11:47 AM	#33
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Jolly good, and needed in these times. However, unless BBCA carries it we'll never see it here in the colonies. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

01-24-2005, 12:06 PM	#35
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	It's a running joke that the Atlantic Ocean is called The Pond, and America (USA) is called "the colonies" by my generation. My friends in the UK all use the former and a few still the latter. Nothing unpatriotic here, just a smile amongst friends. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

01-24-2005, 12:18 PM	#37
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Ah well, I can understand your position. No downgrading amonst my friends merely kidding. Each love our own country and don't denegrate the others. As for the online broadcast, I'll pass as with a dial up connection here in the rural south, it just doesn't work. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

01-24-2005, 12:21 PM	#38
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	..if you haven't yet, rent "Canadian Bacon" with John Candy. It speaks to your sentiments on this. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

01-24-2005, 01:35 PM	#39
Janny The Blobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...) Posts: 1,596	There's also a quiz... I couldn't find the link to it from sunny's link, but it's also on the Beeb. Churchill Quiz __________________ Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton.

01-24-2005, 03:04 PM	#40
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	I notice you don't tell us what you got, young man... (I got 8. How am I supposed to know what Churchill thought of Gladstone? I really like the "sheep in sheep's clothing" though - I remember that from A-level History )

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