Martial Arts

[BeardofPants]

I loved taekwondo, and hated karate. ::shrug:: (I did a non-contact type for a while and it just never gelled.) I want to try aikido one day.... I've tried it briefly, and it was pretty frickin' cool.

[Spock]

Catch a few of the very early Segal movies and see what Akido can do. You can do it at 90 even better than at 20! Very effective, however, some moves do take a bit of space.

[Spock]

..and before you tell me, yes it can also be spelled Seagal. I don't know the guy so both are ok with me.

[Starr Polish]

Forgive my slaughtering of boken and kali. I never see these written out, it's always verbal (which may be why I called some of my katas the Peenans when I believe it's actually Pian). And yes, they're called tonfas. I'm pretty bad at weapons work except the kali sticks.

[Andúril]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Well, I doubt I'm still as fast now so I'll have to watch my pants more carefully.

As carefully as I'm watching them?

I did Judo in junior school. I kicked ass. But then in one tournament someone punched me in my eye, and it felt sour.

[Spock]

Ahh, yes, people hit back.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Andúril

As carefully as I'm watching them?

I thought you were watching Lizra's pants so unless you're a chameleon.... Hm, I now see the reason for your slight obsession with the right sunglasses....

[Andúril]

Hey, who says I'm not?

[Nurvingiel]

*Finds martial arts thead*
*drools*
I can't believe I haven't been in this thread before!!! (By the way, I think you guys were talking about kendo before?)

Anyway, I have my black belt in Renshikan karate, and I have been taking it for about 9 or 10 years. It is a branch of Chito-ryu, one of the five main karate styles.
Renshikan is also influenced by Shito-ryu, Wado-ryu and other styles, but primarily by Chito-ryu and Shito-ryu. Despite these influences, it does not lose focus in its teaching. We have about 30 katas, and we try to practice them all. We do about 10 quite regularly.
The style's main focus is kata, which in our opinion, is the most important aspect of karate. We spar for fun, confidence, and to practice techniques. We have bunkai, which is the practical application of the kata. In otherwords, practicing the techniques from the kata with a partner, and doing counters to the moves. (And counters to the counters, etc.)
We also train with weapons, which is technically a separate style. (The Japanese name escapes me for the moment.) The weapons we use are bo (intoduced at yellow belt, and in my opinion, the most important), sai (green or blue belt), tonfa (blue or brown belt), kama (black belt, but we don't use these as much) and nanchaku (advanced black belt, and we recommend starting with rubber ones) and sword (who's Japanese name also escapes me, it's not katana [!!!], also advanced black belt.) My favourite is the bo, and I also like tonfa.
We also train in mat work, that is throws, falls, and rolls. These are very useful in self defence and general not-hurting-yourself. I've avaided injury more than once doing a proper breakfall. *recalls wiping out on bike* *ow*
The purpose in all aspects of our training is self-defence. Our movements are designed to be straightforward and efficient, and effective. When stepping between stances, for example, we make a semi-circle with the feet to protect the groin during the transition. There are many small details like that that add up to part of our philosophy. Our style is also quite traditional, respecting our sensei and sempais (senior students) a great deal (though this applies to most martial arts, especially karate), and having the names of techniques and stances in Japanese. Exams are difficult, and it takes roughly 1 year to advance a belt level. (More for black obviously. From 1-3 years if you train regularly, as far as I know.)


So SH (Shelob's Hubby), I think that's cool that you're in Isshin-ryu, because I'm reading a book about it right now. (Though, the reading has been paused to read textbooks and 'Two Years Before the Mast'.)

It's called (long title that I forget, I think...) Isshin-ryu, the secrets of Okinawan Karate, by Michael Rosenburg. It's very good.

Right now, as I am on exchange, I am training in Kyokushinkai. They primarily focus on sparring, and they do some kata as well. I don't believe they have weapons, but I have only been to one class. I like sparring, but I like kata more. However, training with this new club will force me to work on sparring more, something I neglect in favour of kata. I will also get in really good shape. (I'm stiff from Monday's class, and I'm going again tonight. After a while, this agony will end. My abs are dispairingly weak right now. *cries*)

*reads thread* Tae Kwon Do does seem to get knocked a lot, and not just by you guys. (I can kind of see why, but still...) Though I wouldn't personally want to block a kick with my shin, Tae Kwon Do is far from useless. Yes, it is a sport and its focus is on tournaments. But, the most important aspect of self-defence is confidence in your abilities. Tae Kwon Do would give you this, as well as physical fitness, which also boosts confidence and abilities. I'm sure there are also techniques learned that could be used in defence, even though I think the more deeper aspects would be missed.
From the little I know of Tae Kwon Do, I believe crescent kicks are used a lot. These are ideal for defending against a knife, for example. A practitioner of Tae Kwon Do, as with any martial art, would also be faster than their opponent. The only reason why I'm sticking up for Tae Kwon Do is because I think if you really want to say a style of martial arts isn't any good, you have to be an expert in it first (as well as an expert in the style you are saying is better). I don't know how many of us can make that claim, except maybe Spock.

*bows to fellow practitioners of martial arts*
This thread RAWKS!

[Shelob's Hubby]

I am taking the Order of Isshinryu (the OI) and it is slightly different from regular Isshinryu. The grandmaster who created Isshinryu is Tatsuo Shimabuku (as with all Okinawan/Japanese spellings, they vary). He derived it mainly from Shurin-ryu and Gojo-ryu. He taught a lot professionally to Marines stationed on Okinawa after WWII. Now, one thing to keep in mind about that is that a lot of the Marines never got close to him and didn't really master the system. But when they got back to the States they bought a black belt and claimed they were masters and started their own dojos. Now I'm not saying that all sensei in Isshinryu did this, but some did. Also, Master Shimabuku did not always want to reveal his secrets to whoever showed up. The founder of the OI, Master Toby Cooling, started in the States and trained in Isshinryu under sensei here. After he progressed up the ranks he went to Okinawa to study with Shimabuku for over a year. He lived with Shimabuku at this time and grew very close to him. He ate, slept, and lived Isshinryu for over a year. When he came back he changed all of his students' kata and techniques because he had been taught them wrong origionally. Later, when Shimabuku retired as the head of Isshinryu, Master Cooling started the OI. The OI only brings in enough money to keep it runing, the sensei don't recieve any monetary renumeration for their work, we don't advertise our style, and we have a strict system of rank and advancement. Again, their are many other good dojo of Issinryu and other styles but I haven't been to a bad dojo in OI or met a bad sensei.
The art of weapons is called kobo-jitsu.
I agree that you shoudn't bash something you don't know about and the reason I feel that I can bash TKD is because there are many TKD converts in the OI and all of them agree that it is pretty much useless to them. In my dojo there is a ni dan who used to be an upper don in TKD and much of my opinion of TKD is derived from him. The main problem with TKD is that when they spar, they are not allowed to punch to the head. I don't mean not make contact, they don't get a point if they punch in the direction of the head. Although they can kick to the head. I think that confidance can be a dangerous thing if you only have condfidance in your ability to block kicks to the head. On the street that's not what is going to happen. Whenever I spar a TKD convert when they first come into class it is way too easy because all I do is punch their head. There was a young man who came into class and he was a black belt in TKD but he sparred at a blue belt level in OI. I'm not saying that all TKD black belts are like that but IMHO one is too many. I'm not making fun of anyone and like I said before, TKD can be a fun sport that is good exercise but I wouldn't want to be on the street with only TKD in my brain.
Renshikan karate sounds very similar to the OI and like an excellent system. In the OI we don't practice with weapons until you reach black belt. Where are you from Nurvingiel?

[Tessar]

I've always loved crecent kicks-- I'm six-foot and when I do one my foot can smack someone in the face who's a few inches taller than I am . He-yaa!

My teacher would always ask me if I thought I was trying to kick Michael Jordan...

[Nurvingiel]

Great explanation of OI SH! I remember Tatsuo Shimabuku from my book now. I think you would enjoy it - Michael Rosenbaum is the author. They have a chapter on the American dojos, which I skimmed, but after what you said maybe I'll read it more thoroughly. (I think Michael Rosenbaum is American, and I think he wrote about the dojos quite favourably. It was more of a general overview IIRC.)

Originally Posted by Shelob's Hubby

The OI only brings in enough money to keep it runing, the sensei don't recieve any monetary renumeration for their work, we don't advertise our style, and we have a strict system of rank and advancement. Again, their are many other good dojo of Issinryu and other styles but I haven't been to a bad dojo in OI or met a bad sensei.

This especially sounds a lot like our style. Some sensei's run their dojos like a business, and others (like mine) are non-profit.

Renshikan karate sounds very similar to the OI and like an excellent system. In the OI we don't practice with weapons until you reach black belt.

*bows* Why thank you!

I agree that you shoudn't bash something you don't know about and the reason I feel that I can bash TKD is because there are many TKD converts in the OI and all of them agree that it is pretty much useless to them. In my dojo there is a ni dan who used to be an upper don in TKD and much of my opinion of TKD is derived from him. The main problem with TKD is that when they spar, they are not allowed to punch to the head. I don't mean not make contact, they don't get a point if they punch in the direction of the head. Although they can kick to the head. I think that confidance can be a dangerous thing if you only have condfidance in your ability to block kicks to the head. On the street that's not what is going to happen.

I agree completely with this statement. I don't think the average street fighter would use kicks at all. On the one hand, this would give a TKD student an advantage, but on the other hand, head kicks can be very impractical. I think the only rules in sparring excluding techniques should be ones that keep people from hurting each other. That way it's more realistic and better practice.
Only being confident in some techniques isn't the best, but it's better than none at all. Also, knowing some TKD would give a student general confidence about himself, and in this way TKD is still useful.
By my earlier statement, I wasn't meaning to imply you or other people were being mean, I was just being the devil's advocate. (And point out that you have to know something to say it isn't any good, as your former TKD dojo members do.)

There was a young man who came into class and he was a black belt in TKD but he sparred at a blue belt level in OI.

I don't think this necessarily reflects badly on TKD, because in our style I find belt rank isn't really correlated with your sparring abilities. Some of our best sparrers are yellow-belts. (Well, I'm thinking of one woman there. Our actual best sparrers are black belts. Obviously, our sensei is number one.)
However, since TKD focuses on sparring, they should be excellent sparrers.


I'm from British Columbia, Canada, and I train in Vancouver. (Our 'headquarters' are split between Vancouver and Calgary [capital of Alberta, the neighbouring province], but our head sensei lives in Vancouver.)

The art of weapons is called kobo-jitsu.

Oh yeah! We call it kobudo, same thing.

[Spock]

..word to the wise....never be fooled by someone with red suspenders......it might be a ranking in their system. lol

[Arat-Falathion]

Ah, I heard rumours of this thread Ok, so be ready for a lot of rambling here :P I tend to ramble on the topic of Martial Arts :P

I've been practising Tae Kwon Do for 4 to 5 years, quit two years in the past, practised with a kickboxer friend privately for 1 year, learned military self defence (Krav Maga) for one year, and I'm now practising MMA, with main focus on brazillian Jiu Jitsu (but we are also influenced by karate, thai boxing, japanese jiu jistu, some boxing, a little wrestling, and then some kali(self defence against weapons) ).

As I hear people speak like they do of Tae Kwon Do, I can only nod my head and say "Yes, of course that is the general view of TKD. They use their feet, it is a sport in the Olympics, how can it possibly be any useful in a street fight?"
I came to the same realization as all of you two years ago. TKD relies on controling distance to your opponent, kicking distance that is. A leg can reach further than a hand, and there is more musscle in a leg, but if a fighter only uses his legs, he'll have to keep the opponent on kicking distance. Obviously, this will hardly ever be possible in a street fight, where there is often a crowd and/or limited space, and your opponent will be crazed (or worse, "calm"). So yes, I do indeed find TKD lacking in that aspect. But we can kick! Oh my oh my! I trained at the school who's the leading school at TKD here in Norway, and those who truly practised for the olympics (especially on the male side), omg! how hard they kicked! and how fast they kicked! Simply blocking with a hand has little effect there (in my experience) if not the whole body is behind the block.

Positive sides with TKD is that one really learns how to balance to body, how to build momentum and how to get the maximum power into your kicks, jumps and rotations. However, TKD is not a very balanced art, even if it relies very heavily on balance. When attacking or counter attacking one is on one foot, thus one has semi-balance, which can easily be broken :P

We all can come to our own conclusions of the negative side of TKD. I do believe there are no style that is perfect. But TKD may be one of the styles that is most obviously lacking in many aspects, because the general blackbelt practitioner of TKD is not of the required skill to make the style effective.

end of my TKD rambling :P Now I'm all brazillian jiu jitsu!

Anyone here seen the early UFC's? Anyone here heard of Royce Gracie? He took the world by storm when he entered the octagon in the first UFC. By using groundfighting techniques of brazillian jiu jitsu, he, being 180 pounds, defeated oponents up to 250 pounds! He used armlocks and chokeholds to force his opponents into surrendering and not by punching his opponents' face to pudding. He won 3 UFC's, without drawing any blood!. They say he is the reason MMA or Mixed Martial Arts has become a requirement in NHB, or Street Fights.

When I started my first TKD lesson I learned the first stance (the deep "kata" stance), the hip to solarplexus punch, and the front kick. Oh, how boring it was...
When I started my first BJJ lesson I learned throws, mounting, armlocks, getaways, falling techniques (which I never learned in TKD) and rolls. Oh, how cool!!

I spent quite a while before I chose what school I wanted to start in this year. I knew I didn't want to continue with TKD, as my 2 years off (because I was on the move) had proven to me that it was lacking to me, and was, to me and my body, not effective enough. Although I do have a rather athletic frame (no weakling so to speak), I was on the lookout for something that wasn't fancy, but was effective. I wanted to practise technique and not flexibility (which I do on my own), not strength (which I do on my own), and not stamina(which I do on my own). So I wanted a school that went 100% for technique, and against all odds I found it. At first I was scepticle. I thought Jiu Jitsu was like Judo, which (like TKD) I think have become too much a sport, and not a self defence (although I highly respect the art). But after my first lesson in BJJ, I knew I had found my art. And now 6 months later I still have that same feeling.

But BJJ is also lacking. What if fighting several opponents? I doubt groundfighting could become very effective then :P And we have nothing like kata, and the spritual aspect of martial arts is greately lacking. In TKD (where I practised) it was also lacking. But a korean had our class a few times, and he would continuously stop us during training, bid us to sit down, and then speak of the spiritual aspects of this technique and that technique, give us some history, speak of the developement of the art during the years, etc... I know later on I will miss the spiritual aspects, but right now I find technique more pleasing than the spiritual.

I could give a little history lesson on Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, and how it was derived from Japanese Jiu Jitsu and how it changed. But this post is already getting lengthy, so... :P

[Shelob's Hubby]

I have heard what Arat-Falathion said about groundfighting as well. Its great against one opponent, but how often do you see one person picking one other? If someone starts a fight they always make sure that they have a few buddies around. One of the brothers of one of the brown belts in my dojo used to compete in No Holds Barred competitions. His last name is Gallagher; I forget his first name. Fighting was his proffession and he made enough money to retire at a young age. (I think that he's in his thirties and living in Souther California as a beach bum and surfer dude. Fights do have happy endings) . He said that one of the people who he trained with got into a fight outside a bar. The person that Gallagher trained with took the other guy to the ground and submitted him. The guys friends then came along and proceded to kick the crap out of the NHB guy. He had to go to the emergency room and had a nice hospital stay. So what I'm saying is, groundfighting alone does not make you a complete fighter, but it is an important aspect of fighting. In my dojo I, my sister, Mr. Gallagher (not the NHB one, the brother), and some of the blackbelts do some ground techniques, throws, and grappling training before class. I would not want to purposely take someone down and fight them there because he probably has friends around. But if I do get knocked to the ground, I would like to know what to do. A lot of fights end up on the ground unintentially.
My style is very inclusive to other styles and we use basic self-defense techniques from Kung Fu, Jiu Jitsu, Kali, wrestling, and many others. My sensei once said that the difference between Judo and Jiu Jitsu is that in Judo you throw someone and in Jiu Jitsu you throw someone and break their arm on the way down.

[Spock]

With all my training, I prefer S&W as a response to felonious assault.

[Arat-Falathion]

err... S & W?

Here in norway streetfights, or pub brawls are usualy like this: One guy gets in a fight with each other. Obviously both sides have friends, so the friends usually stand idle by the side... until their friend has lost of course :P So doing a submission on the ground is no good idea, unless you are sure there are no friends of his waiting like hungry dogs to jump on you.

NHB guys are good fighters, but they stricktly train on 1 vs 1 matches. Still, they can take a beating... so I can't understand why the friend of your friend of your friend would take the fight to the ground like that. Obviously he should know that the guy he was fighting wasn't alone... but, like you said, fights do unintentionally end up on the ground. Perhaps it would be wiser to know how to get up again, than to add a armlock or chokehold?

[Spock]

Indeed, falling with quick recovery is part of most Jiu-Jitsu systems. The Gracies are quite good at it but their time upon the world stage has passed, IMO. Just look at the articles and films about them their first few UFC titles and now and you'll see what I mean.
As for me, I've always thought Vikings great fighters and never thought of what system they use, just stay out of their way!

[Spock]

[QUOTE=Arat-Falathion]err... S & W?


stands for Smith and Wesson, my primary weapon of choice.

As I've gotten older I can handle minor situations fine, but if it's something where I might ruin a good suit or a pair of pants then it's serious and my justification for using deadly force comes into play.

Now, don't get upset or I'll call a Troll.

[Arat-Falathion]

Ah, forgot to mention. Nice what you said about jiu jitsu compared to judo Shelob

And, yes. You are right Spock. After the fighters became MMA fighters, an MA grappler is lacking. What gave them such easy victory in early UFC was that noone knew how to fight on the ground, and how to respond to a takedown, or how to prevent it.

Now the fighters do indeed know! Sakuraba surely prooved that to the world when he made the Gracie's throw in the towel.

Vikings? As in the old ferosious raiders from the north? :P

err... S & W?
Hahaha Figures. Even for a skilled fighter, fighting against several opponents greatly hurts ones odds of getting out of the fight victorious. In TKD we learned that when fighting more than one opponent, you had to try and keep your oponent on as straight a line as possible, tossing them at each other to fight as few opponents as possible... I've never tried that in real life, but I have my doubts it could ever be as easy as it seemed in the dojo.