Don't forget Tolkien

[Lady Ravyn]

i agree with BC and nerdanel.

i read the tolkien forums all the time; i'm not in a tolkien phase right now (as katya put it ) so i'm not very talkative about it, that's all. at least by reading them i'm getting more info about middlearth and more different viewpoints than what i've ever heard outside of the moot, but i don't really have anything to say. or i do have something to say, but before i can post it, i read it further down in the thread
so it's not that i'm migrating south, i'm just doing most of my talking on the southren side of the board!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by Valandil
Lately I've been making a conscious effort to post more on what I call the 'north side' of the board.
....Go north!....Be nice!

Riders of Entmoot! What news from the North?

[Beor]

Origionally posted by Chrys the Spider
Riders of Entmoot! What news from the North?

I cant seem to keep my hands from typing even when my brain knows they are wrong! Also, I cant keep my proverbial foot of power out of my mouth.

[Bombadillo]

Most of the time I come online in a hurry or at some unreasonable hour, and now it's my first time in a while. I just want to read and catch up and post, and the Tolkien forums take to long.

Is it just me, or does everyone go 'north' and 'south' in spurts? *stealing Val's terms*

[Ragnarok]

I don't usually contribute much up "north" because a) its already been discussed or b) whatever you guys are talking about is way over my head. I just don't have the vast knowledge that some of the other mooters have. However, I did buy a Tolkien Illustrated Encyclopedia to help me out. I do read the LotR, Middle Earth and The Silmarillion forums quite often... posting is another story.

[Valandil]

Do the Tolkien forums seem more geared for 'Experts'? Are they not 'Novice-friendly' enough? If so, how can we help make them that way?

Ideally, they could become a place where people could LEARN about Tolkien - not just show how much they already know. They should not be intimidating for those who don't know as much as others... and I'm getting the sense that they are. Is that the case? And... like I asked, how can we fix it?

[Maedhros]

Ideally, they could become a place where people could LEARN about Tolkien - not just show how much they already know. They should not be intimidating for those who don't know as much as others... and I'm getting the sense that they are. Is that the case? And... like I asked, how can we fix it?

I think that people just need to care for Tolkien really. The discussions are not about facts entirely, there is plenty of room for speculation and the motifs behind the characters and their actions.

Saying that what i wanted to post has already being done, does that means that people will never post there? To me that is a horrible excuse. If you care, you will find something that has not been posted.

The funny thing is that I personally have only read the Published Silmarillion completely only 2 times, yet I post in that fora more than members who have read it more than me.

Just look at the amount of time that people spend in non Tolkien forums, see the time that people spend for example in political forums in here. I go to a tolkien forum to discuss Tolkien. There is no point in being a Tolkien forum if you are not going to discuss the works of JRRT.

[Sister Golden Hair]

People need to realize that there are many reasons for why one forum may become more active than another and that timing is a factor. The General Messages forum has always been the most active forum, simply because it is where people gather to talk about a variety of things. When the first movie of LotRs came out, the movie forum was by far the most active and because the movies spurred some on to read the books, the book forums also picked up at that time, so this is an example of how timing effects activity on the board and where.

I think that sometimes people begin feeling that there may be nothing new to say that hasn't already been said in the world of Tolkien. I for one, would like to see more discussion surrounding the HoMe series. I have as most of you know, decided to put a limit on game threads in the Middle-earth forum because I think they stiffle book discussion.

But keep in mind everyone, that it is summer time in many places and school is out and people are spending much more time away from the computer and more time enjoying the outdoors and taking vacations. The board may be in a slump but this isn't unusual, and members come and go. I think there will probably be an increase in activity when the white stuff starts falling. Just remember that busy, then boring, then busy, is the nature of the message board, and it's not just Entmoot. But how fun and active the community is is up to its members.

[Beor]

Well, for one thing, I understand that people dont like to say things twice, but is is really so bad to have two threads about the same thing? If you want people to post up there, you have to let them discuss it actively, not recommend that they go check out a thread that was started in 2002 and has been discussed out. People dont want to read other people's opinions when they cant actively participate, so many questions go unanswered, because people just forget about it rather than doing a search and finding out that all thier questions have been answered.

Plus, I also understand the need to be complete, but it is really hard to discuss something in a thread when a simple question is asked, and someone comes in with a fifteen paragraph essay to answer it, pointing out every point they possibly can, thus killing the thread. It can seem condescending, I am sure.

The problem is that people need to relax, and understand that not everyone has time to pick apart the books to understand every fine detail, and they need ot discuss it in their own way.

Start a discussion project on the HOME series, Sister Golden Hair. I think it would generate a hell of a lot of discussion from people who have read the HOME and it would encourage people to buy the series, like what happened with you talking about Morgoths Ring. I bought the damn thing, and it was awesome. Just go chapter by chapter, and book by book.

Just my two cents.

[Maedhros]

Plus, I also understand the need to be complete, but it is really hard to discuss something in a thread when a simple question is asked, and someone comes in with a fifteen paragraph essay to answer it, pointing out every point they possibly can, thus killing the thread. It can seem condescending, I am sure.

The problem is that people need to relax, and understand that not everyone has time to pick apart the books to understand every fine detail, and they need ot discuss it in their own way.

This is funny.

Start a discussion project on the HOME series, Sister Golden Hair. I think it would generate a hell of a lot of discussion from people who have read the HOME and it would encourage people to buy the series, like what happened with you talking about Morgoths Ring. I bought the damn thing, and it was awesome. Just go chapter by chapter, and book by book.

This is even funnier. This could work of course, in another forum it would work, but I'm not sure that entmoot is the right place for it. I wonder how long a Book of Lost Tales I discussion would take place.
Several questions need to be asked:
1. How many people in entmoot have read those books?
2. How many people who have answered yes in the above question, are still in entmoot?
3. How many of those who have answered yes in the above are willing to participate in it?
4. How many new members who have not read the book will be willing to participate in it?

The Book of Lost Tales I is just amazing, and it would be an awesome discussion but the question is: Do people really care?

Then said Vairë: 'Know then that aforetime, in the days of Inwë (and farther back it is hard to go in the history of the Eldar), there was a place of fair gardens in Valinor beside a silver sea. Now this place was near the confines of the realm but not far from Kôr, yet by reason of its distance from the sun-tree Lindelos there was a light there as of summer evening, save only when the silver lamps were kindled on the hill at dusk, and then little lights of white would dance and quiver on the paths, chasing black shadow-dapples under the trees. This was a time of joy to the children, for it was mostly at this hour that a new comrade would come down the lane called Olórë Mallë or the Path of Dreams. It has been said to me, though the truth I know not, that that lane ran by devious routes to the homes of Men, but that way we never trod when we fared thither ourselves. It was a lane of deep banks and great overhanging hedges, beyond which stood many tall trees wherein a perpetual whisper seemed to live; but not seldom great glow-worms crept about its grassy borders.
'Now in this place of gardens a high gate of lattice-work that shone golden in the dusk opened upon the lane of dreams, and from there led winding paths of high box to the fairest of all the gardens, and amidmost of the garden stood a white cottage. Of what it was built, nor when, no one knew, nor now knows, but it was said to me that it shone with a pale light, as it was of pearl, and its roof was a thatch, but a thatch of gold.
'Now on one side of the cot stood a thicket of white lilac and at the other end a mighty yew, from whose shoots the children fashioned bows or clambered by his branches upon the roof. But in the lilacs every bird that ever sang sweetly gathered and sang. Now the walls of the cottage were bent with age and its many small lattice windows were twisted into strange shapes. No one, 'tis said, dwelt in the cottage, which was however guarded secretly and jealously by the Eldar so that no harm came nigh it, and that yet might the children playing therein in freedom know of no guardian- ship. This was the Cottage of the Children, or of the Play of Sleep, and not of Lost Play, as has wrongly been said in song among Men — for no play was lost then, and here alas only and now is the Cottage of Lost Play.

And boys and girls, you will not find IMO, a more beautiful story in all of Tolkiens legendarium thanThe Cottage of Lost Play, where no play was lost.

[Valandil]

Actually Maedhros - there was an interesting discussion about one of the HoMe stories that was going in the Sil thread for awhile (starts with an 'A...' - someone help me out... Aphrabeth or something?). Active participants seemed to maybe be just a half dozen or so - but that's fine for a conversation. Plus - that very thing going on might draw in more of the people who have those books and want to discuss those things.

Perhaps if we wait until fall (in the northern hemisphere) we could get some good HoMe discussion going. I only have one of the books myself (#12 - due to my particular interest), but will certainly be in the market to buy the rest before too awful long. A book-by-book discussion might be a nice way to get into them... and feel like I only need to buy one at a time.

[stray thought]btw - I've always thought your avatar would be a cool album cover - and there was singing involved with that episode anyway, right? [/stray thought]

[Sister Golden Hair]

That was the Athrabeth Val, and the disussion was in the Middle-earth forum.

I do have to agree with Maedhros in that not a lot of people have read the HoMe series and plus the way they are set up could be difficult to present it as a project like the Sil project. There are a lot of interesting things in these books worth discussing though. It seems these are more appealing to the advanced Tolkien reader, rather than the novice ones.

There are probably many things in Tolkien's world to talk about. We need to rack our brains and think of some heavy and original topics.

[Valandil]

I tend to agree that a Discussion Project would be burdensome. However, what if we eventually just start a discussion thread on each one? I wouldn't launch those all at once... maybe a couple months apart... and just let people freely start and continue conversations about anything in the volume covered by each thread. Then of course, separate threads could spring up to cover specific topics that people find interesting and get into (a la 'Athrabeth').

And true - it might have limited appeal - but the group may grow to a dozen or two... and it might be just what that group of people are dying to do. (EDIT: I'm thinking we could reasonably start with at least: you, Maedhros (if he sticks around), Artanis, Rian, Earniel, Arien, Beor, BoP (she's a HoMer, right?)... and I'll try to tag along) - maybe some others I'm just not thinking of (are Falagar & Jonathan HoMers?)... and maybe some older members could be lured back to take part)

Maybe float one out there in early October and see what happens?

(EDIT: new term... HoMer(s)!! )

[Valandil]

And can we, meanwhile... keep things 'Novice-friendly'? I think so... but what specifically can we do to help in that?

[Maedhros]

I've always thought your avatar would be a cool album cover - and there was singing involved with that episode anyway, right?

Yes, it would be kwl.

Actually Maedhros - there was an interesting discussion about one of the HoMe stories that was going in the Sil thread for awhile (starts with an 'A...' - someone help me out... Aphrabeth or something?). Active participants seemed to maybe be just a half dozen or so - but that's fine for a conversation. Plus - that very thing going on might draw in more of the people who have those books and want to discuss those things.

I saw the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth discussion. That discussion took off, IMO, because the story is very interesting and people in general are familiar with Finrod.
I wonder if a similar discussion would have taken place from Morgoth's Ring like the Ainulidalë or the Annals of Amanwould have done the same though.

One does not need to make a whole book discussion, but rather try and tackle the most interesting stories and bring them up for discussion, eg. The Fall of Gondolin, The Nauglafring, Ósanwe-kenta, etc and see what happens.

And true - it might have limited appeal - but the group may grow to a dozen or two... and it might be just what that group of people are dying to do. (EDIT: I'm thinking we could reasonably start with at least: you, Maedhros (if he sticks around), Artanis, Rian, Beor, BoP (she's a HoMer, right?)... and I'll try to tag along) - maybe some others I'm just not thinking of... and maybe some older members could be lured back to take part)

Then there was carnage at the barriers, and Egalmoth and Tuor went from place to place of the defence, but Ecthelion lay by the fountain; and that stand was the most stubborn-valiant that is remembered in all the songs or in any tale. Yet at long last a drake bursts the barrier to the north − and there had once been the issue of the Alley of Roses and a fair place to see or to walk in, but now there is but a lane of blackness and it is filled with noise.
Tuor stood then in the way of that beast, but was sundered from Egalmoth, and they pressed him backward even to the centre of the square nigh the fountain. There he became weary from the strangling heat and was beaten down by a great demon, even Gothmog lord of Balrogs. But lo! Ecthelion, whose face was of the pallor of grey steel and whose shield-arm hung limp at his side, strode above him as he fell; and that Elf drave at the demon, yet did not give him his death, getting rather a wound to his sword-arm that his weapon left his grasp. Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the Fountain, fairest of theNoldor, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike upon it he drave into that evil breast, and he twined his legs about his foeman's thighs; and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters.

Isn't this kwl.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Maedhros
...Isn't this kwl.

tis indeed!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Valandil
And can we, meanwhile... keep things 'Novice-friendly'? I think so... but what specifically can we do to help in that?

Well, people know what they know, and some know more than others, but I don't see why novice readers need to feel intimidated by advanced readers. We are all novice at some point. The advanced readers should help the novice readers and answer their questions without the novice reader feeling they need to shy away from discussion because they're among a few more advanced readers.

Discussing the HoMe series would be cool, but the stories are scattered and few. Some other things that CT discusses and things like "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" could make for some very interesting and informative conversations though.

[brownjenkins]

i'm always willing to put in a comment or two

but i'm more of a thread-responder than thread-starter... too much responsibility

so someone else start one and i'll post

on the novice thing... i mentioned it a while back with mixed response... don't close new threads that have been 'done before' unless we're talking really recent... it's intimidating to people

i like Val's idea too... and just recently re-read lost tales... though i see i didn't make his HoMer list... how soon the king forgets the little people who helped his rise to the top

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, the rule is in all forums that any topic that exists must be brought back and duplicate threads get closed unless the topic has not been discussed within six months after the last post.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
... though i see i didn't make his HoMer list... how soon the king forgets the little people who helped his rise to the top

Sorry! Guess I shouldnta made a list... bound to leave OFF some very important personages!