Gandalf's seeming reticence - Page 2

Wayfarer · 01-08-2002, 10:23 PM

Nah... but I'd bet money that it makes things easier.

but then again.. gandalf does say something about 'I need stuff to work with, I can't burn snow!'

But that could be just with fire.

Gandalf the White · 01-08-2002, 10:50 PM

If you have not read the books and only seen the movie, then this thread contains major spoilers.

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
One point: Gandalf did not hit "bottom" of the chasm at Khazad-Dum and break all his bones. The Balrog fled, and Gandalf followed it, through long-forgotten passages, all the way to the summit of Caradhras. Kinda hard to do if your bones have been pulverized, physical incarnation of Maiar or no.

I dont believe that is how I remember it!

After the 11 day battle of Gandalf and the Balrog, ending on the peak of Zirak-Zigil, Gandalf, killing the Balrog, is basically "defeated" or exhausted, per se. His "spirit" leaves his body and returns to Valinor where he is sent back to Middle-earth to complete his quest by the permission of Ilúvatar.

Hence his statement in The Two Towers:

"Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death."

Tolkein explains in a letter:

"For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in confirmity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was in vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.
...So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course, he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Theoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' - no more violently than the release of St. Peter from prison....
Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference... He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or govenors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not disincarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment."
[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, (#156)]

So he did die in a sense of the word.

bropous · 01-09-2002, 11:26 AM

Gandalf the Grey, I said nothing, as far as I can recall, about Mithrandir "returning as from death". I only stated that he had not broken all his bones when he hit the bottom of the chasm, and therefore the argument that he could not escape did not hold water.

Lightice · 01-09-2002, 12:37 PM

Gandalf died after battle with the Durin's Bane. However, as said before, he was sent back by either Valar or Eru.
That is clearly told in book itself as well as appendix.

rdolivaw · 01-09-2002, 05:49 PM

Maybe the istari are constrained to some extent by physical laws. That is, the reason for the stone to create the light (or using the end of his staff to light fires) is that there needs to be some physical object that will flouresce or incandesce to create the light or fire. Magic can be used to initiate these responses, but, after that, physical laws take effect. Just as an example.

bropous · 01-09-2002, 05:56 PM

Whoops. Gandalf and the Balrog battled on the top of Celebdil, not Caradhras. Sorry. When he threw down the Balrog, the fall of the Valaraukar's fall broke the mountainside, not the summit.

It was the Silvertine, not the Redhorn.

And when the Balrog and Gandalf hit the bottom of the chasm of Khazad-Dum, they hit water, quenching the fires of the evil Maiar. Then it got all slimy and nasty.

samwise of the shire · 01-10-2002, 12:51 AM

Quote:

I know very well, that there was no wizard duel in books.

Yep I agree with you. Gandalf IS the type of character that would give up without a fight. He wouldn't need any Orcish escort going up to the upper most tower of course. He'd walk up there on his own, calling down the stairs"Oh enjoy my staff. And if you want to beat the **** out of me sometime I'll be up in my room starving to death and awaiting news of the end of the world as we know it."Sounds just like him.
Uh Hh SUUURRRREE!!Just THINK about Gandalf for ONE MINUTE or 30 SECONDS even. He just sits down in Moria and lets the Balrog get away to kill other dwaves right? NO!! Why did he LET Saruman lock him up in a tower again?
I hope my heavey sarcasm does'nt get me booted
Sam

bropous · 01-10-2002, 02:38 PM

Agreed, samwise, Gandalf the Grey was no doormat. He was taken prisoner, and knew in his heart Saruman could probably roast him alive had he chosen to do so.

The point is, one had to demonstrate the superior power of Saruman to an uninitiated audience. I thought the battle between the two Istari extremely effective in laying out this premise to an audience who had not read the books.

Had Jackson only set out to please Tolkien fans, the film would not be spurring the tremendous increase in book sales currently in progress. Look at where "Fellowship of the Ring" is on the sales lists, folks. Jackson got folks to pick up the books, who had never done so before. Proof of a good job, in my humble EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO opinion.

Pailan · 01-10-2002, 06:32 PM

OK, bp, how many posts does it take to get listed as an "EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO"?
Just wondering.

bropous · 01-11-2002, 01:54 AM

LOL, Pailan, I forget the magic number, but it was around 247...

Mayhaps it just takes the whim of the Site Gods, like Wayfarer's "Inside Joker" appellation...

Hang in there, my good friend, you're in spitting distance of earning your "Elven Warrior" promotion!

Pailan · 01-11-2002, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
Hang in there, my good friend, you're in spitting distance of earning your "Elven Warrior" promotion!

I can almost taste orc blood now!

ragamuffin92 · 01-11-2002, 11:46 AM

Hi--
I am currently reading Tolkien's "Unfinished Tales." It shows that Saruman was double-dealing even before Frodo & company set out from Bag End. He tried to give the impression that he was serving Sauron by pretending to tell the Nazgul everything he knew about the location of the Shire (when they had set out from Mordor to look for "Baggins"). At that point, he was also acting outwardly as if he still supported the White Council.

A side note: Tolkien left out many details, such as: how did Saruman imprison Gandalf, and what exactly was going on underground at Isengard with Sarumman's war machinery? I think Jackson showed great imagination by the way he portrayed these aspects. I did find it disturbing, though, to see Gandalf flung all over the place like a rag doll. I guess when you are attempting to imprison Mithrandir, you can't just say, "Ummmm, excuse me, Gandalf--if it's not TOO much trouble, would you mind laying down your staff, and climbing up to the top of my tower to be my prisoner? Be a good chap, will you? Thanks EVER so much---I owe you one."

coolismo · 01-11-2002, 12:03 PM

Isn't Gandalf reticent because he knows the mechanics of evil. To defeat Saruman (except by argument) would remove the engine that drives the eventual victory. Agents of evil have to be redirected to overcoming the force of evil. So he is dropped by the Balrog but he is resurrected out of the shadow as an even greater authority figure by the time he reaches Rohan and Gondor. I dunno it just seems to me that Gandalf wisdom is to use authority rather than power and the route to great authority is to walk into the shadow of evil not go head to head (he tells the Balrog it shall not pass not that he will knock its block off). Thats why I hate the fight seen with Saruman in Ring The Lord Action Hero. Gandalf maybe learns this after being forced to take the route through Moria. The difference between questing and fighting ...Gandalf the Grey not black or white.... Maybe...

bropous · 01-11-2002, 12:06 PM

Good points, ragamuffin92, and welcome to the Moot!

Again, I think the "wizard fight" portions of the film were important to show to those who had not read the books why Saruman could imprison Gandalf, and why Gandalf could not just magic-fight his way out.

bropous · 01-11-2002, 12:11 PM

Ah, but coolismo, Gandalf is NOT "dropped by the Balrog". He defeats and destroys the Balrog on Celebdil.

ragamuffin92 · 01-11-2002, 12:52 PM

Hi--
I don't believe that Gandalf surrendered willingly, because time was of the essence. As head of the order, Saruman was the most powerful of all the wizards. I have a quote from Gandalf to support my position. In Fellowship,in the "Many Meetings" chapter, Frodo was astonished to hear that the wizard had been held captive. Gandalf replied, "There are many powers in the world, for good or evil. Some are greater than I am." The context indicates that his imprisoner was one of those greater powers. So I DEFINITELY don't agree that he just meekly surrendered here. Don't forget that he wanted to return to Bree to meet Frodo, and time was of the essence.

You make a good point, however, about Gandalf generally not using a "Put up your dukes" methods when confronting a foe (before his resurrection, anyway. I'm thinking here of the way he directly attacked the Nazgul at the gate of Minas Tirith--I think that's where it was. In that situation, I think he had to use his big guns). As a wizard, he had some second sight, and even if it wasn't crystal clear, it was accurate. For example, he told Frodo that he sensed that Gollum would play a part in the unfolding of events, but he didn't know if it would be for good or evil. Partial foresight, here. So we sort of agree.

For the most part, he seemed to put off using his full power until absolutely necessary. But I just can't believe he would have surrendered to Saruman if he wasn't overmatched. I think that over his lifetime, he showed a pattern of restraint that was the result of great wisdom, but not surrender. IMHO
If I ever run into Gandalf at a NY Yankees game, I'll make sure to ask him about it. (I hear he's a HUGE bsaeball fan.

)

rdolivaw · 01-11-2002, 01:16 PM

What's a "EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO"?

ragamuffin92 · 01-11-2002, 01:29 PM

BROPOUS, thanx for the welcome. I think that Jackson did an admirable job filling in Tolkien's blanks (the wizard duel, for example), and also in deciding which expositional details to include or exclude. It would have really been great if he could have made a series of SIX films, a la "Star Wars," two per book. Oh, well.
The scenery, special effects, etc, were unbelievable, but what got to me most was the characterization. With very few exceptions, I thought the casting was brilliant, and so was the way the characters related to each other, especially all the hobbits. Ian Holm was a better Bilbo than I could have imagined. The relationship between Frodo and Sam was touching without being sappy, and Boromir's death scene was so great that I can't find words to describe it. Great script, great acting here. Boy, those men from Gondor sure can ACT!!
I'm sorry if I've gotten off the Gandalf theme a bit here. I'll try to do better next time.

ragamuffin92 · 01-11-2002, 01:32 PM

I had assumed it was an Entish abbreviation for the article "A" or "AN."

rdolivaw · 01-11-2002, 01:47 PM

Hah!!

01-08-2002, 10:23 PM	#21
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Nah... but I'd bet money that it makes things easier. but then again.. gandalf does say something about 'I need stuff to work with, I can't burn snow!' But that could be just with fire. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-09-2002, 11:26 AM	#23
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Gandalf the Grey, I said nothing, as far as I can recall, about Mithrandir "returning as from death". I only stated that he had not broken all his bones when he hit the bottom of the chasm, and therefore the argument that he could not escape did not hold water. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-09-2002, 05:49 PM	#25
rdolivaw Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 6	Or perhaps... Maybe the istari are constrained to some extent by physical laws. That is, the reason for the stone to create the light (or using the end of his staff to light fires) is that there needs to be some physical object that will flouresce or incandesce to create the light or fire. Magic can be used to initiate these responses, but, after that, physical laws take effect. Just as an example. __________________ R. D. Olivaw

01-09-2002, 05:56 PM	#26
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Whoops. Gandalf and the Balrog battled on the top of Celebdil, not Caradhras. Sorry. When he threw down the Balrog, the fall of the Valaraukar's fall broke the mountainside, not the summit. It was the Silvertine, not the Redhorn. And when the Balrog and Gandalf hit the bottom of the chasm of Khazad-Dum, they hit water, quenching the fires of the evil Maiar. Then it got all slimy and nasty. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-10-2002, 02:38 PM	#28
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Agreed, samwise, Gandalf the Grey was no doormat. He was taken prisoner, and knew in his heart Saruman could probably roast him alive had he chosen to do so. The point is, one had to demonstrate the superior power of Saruman to an uninitiated audience. I thought the battle between the two Istari extremely effective in laying out this premise to an audience who had not read the books. Had Jackson only set out to please Tolkien fans, the film would not be spurring the tremendous increase in book sales currently in progress. Look at where "Fellowship of the Ring" is on the sales lists, folks. Jackson got folks to pick up the books, who had never done so before. Proof of a good job, in my humble EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO opinion. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-09-2002, 12:37 PM	#24
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	Gandalf died after battle with the Durin's Bane. However, as said before, he was sent back by either Valar or Eru. That is clearly told in book itself as well as appendix.

01-10-2002, 06:32 PM	#29
Pailan Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: aisle 12, seat#2 Posts: 449	An aside OK, bp, how many posts does it take to get listed as an "EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO"? Just wondering. __________________ "Holy Entmoot, Batman!" "Who knows, Robin? This strange mixing of minds may be the greatest single sevice ever performed for humanity! Let's go, but, inconspicuosly, through the window. We'll use our Batropes. Our job is finished." Oh, btw, Frodo lives.

01-11-2002, 01:54 AM	#30
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	LOL, Pailan, I forget the magic number, but it was around 247... Mayhaps it just takes the whim of the Site Gods, like Wayfarer's "Inside Joker" appellation... Hang in there, my good friend, you're in spitting distance of earning your "Elven Warrior" promotion! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-11-2002, 11:46 AM	#32
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	Gandalf the Meek? Hi-- I am currently reading Tolkien's "Unfinished Tales." It shows that Saruman was double-dealing even before Frodo & company set out from Bag End. He tried to give the impression that he was serving Sauron by pretending to tell the Nazgul everything he knew about the location of the Shire (when they had set out from Mordor to look for "Baggins"). At that point, he was also acting outwardly as if he still supported the White Council. A side note: Tolkien left out many details, such as: how did Saruman imprison Gandalf, and what exactly was going on underground at Isengard with Sarumman's war machinery? I think Jackson showed great imagination by the way he portrayed these aspects. I did find it disturbing, though, to see Gandalf flung all over the place like a rag doll. I guess when you are attempting to imprison Mithrandir, you can't just say, "Ummmm, excuse me, Gandalf--if it's not TOO much trouble, would you mind laying down your staff, and climbing up to the top of my tower to be my prisoner? Be a good chap, will you? Thanks EVER so much---I owe you one."

01-11-2002, 12:03 PM	#33
coolismo Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: south england Posts: 93	gandalf the wisdom of the grey Isn't Gandalf reticent because he knows the mechanics of evil. To defeat Saruman (except by argument) would remove the engine that drives the eventual victory. Agents of evil have to be redirected to overcoming the force of evil. So he is dropped by the Balrog but he is resurrected out of the shadow as an even greater authority figure by the time he reaches Rohan and Gondor. I dunno it just seems to me that Gandalf wisdom is to use authority rather than power and the route to great authority is to walk into the shadow of evil not go head to head (he tells the Balrog it shall not pass not that he will knock its block off). Thats why I hate the fight seen with Saruman in Ring The Lord Action Hero. Gandalf maybe learns this after being forced to take the route through Moria. The difference between questing and fighting ...Gandalf the Grey not black or white.... Maybe...

01-11-2002, 12:06 PM	#34
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Good points, ragamuffin92, and welcome to the Moot! Again, I think the "wizard fight" portions of the film were important to show to those who had not read the books why Saruman could imprison Gandalf, and why Gandalf could not just magic-fight his way out. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-11-2002, 12:11 PM	#35
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Ah, but coolismo, Gandalf is NOT "dropped by the Balrog". He defeats and destroys the Balrog on Celebdil. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-11-2002, 12:52 PM	#36
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	Hi-- I don't believe that Gandalf surrendered willingly, because time was of the essence. As head of the order, Saruman was the most powerful of all the wizards. I have a quote from Gandalf to support my position. In Fellowship,in the "Many Meetings" chapter, Frodo was astonished to hear that the wizard had been held captive. Gandalf replied, "There are many powers in the world, for good or evil. Some are greater than I am." The context indicates that his imprisoner was one of those greater powers. So I DEFINITELY don't agree that he just meekly surrendered here. Don't forget that he wanted to return to Bree to meet Frodo, and time was of the essence. You make a good point, however, about Gandalf generally not using a "Put up your dukes" methods when confronting a foe (before his resurrection, anyway. I'm thinking here of the way he directly attacked the Nazgul at the gate of Minas Tirith--I think that's where it was. In that situation, I think he had to use his big guns). As a wizard, he had some second sight, and even if it wasn't crystal clear, it was accurate. For example, he told Frodo that he sensed that Gollum would play a part in the unfolding of events, but he didn't know if it would be for good or evil. Partial foresight, here. So we sort of agree. For the most part, he seemed to put off using his full power until absolutely necessary. But I just can't believe he would have surrendered to Saruman if he wasn't overmatched. I think that over his lifetime, he showed a pattern of restraint that was the result of great wisdom, but not surrender. IMHO If I ever run into Gandalf at a NY Yankees game, I'll make sure to ask him about it. (I hear he's a HUGE bsaeball fan. ) Last edited by ragamuffin92 : 01-11-2002 at 01:02 PM.

01-11-2002, 01:16 PM	#37
rdolivaw Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 6	All right, I'll bite... What's a "EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO"? __________________ R. D. Olivaw

01-11-2002, 01:29 PM	#38
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	BROPOUS, thanx for the welcome. I think that Jackson did an admirable job filling in Tolkien's blanks (the wizard duel, for example), and also in deciding which expositional details to include or exclude. It would have really been great if he could have made a series of SIX films, a la "Star Wars," two per book. Oh, well. The scenery, special effects, etc, were unbelievable, but what got to me most was the characterization. With very few exceptions, I thought the casting was brilliant, and so was the way the characters related to each other, especially all the hobbits. Ian Holm was a better Bilbo than I could have imagined. The relationship between Frodo and Sam was touching without being sappy, and Boromir's death scene was so great that I can't find words to describe it. Great script, great acting here. Boy, those men from Gondor sure can ACT!! I'm sorry if I've gotten off the Gandalf theme a bit here. I'll try to do better next time.

01-11-2002, 01:32 PM	#39
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO I had assumed it was an Entish abbreviation for the article "A" or "AN."

01-11-2002, 01:47 PM	#40
rdolivaw Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 6	Entish abbreviation.... Hah!! __________________ R. D. Olivaw

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