Ancient Cultures

[Hemel]

Ah yes, Gaffer, with the 'Celts' one of the problems was that they didn't record things in writing much themselves, in terms of their philosophies and teachings, preferring to keep it all in memory instead. But there are some written remains (I think about five hundred fragments or more) in Celtic languages with borrowed alphabets, and perhaps the most well-known is the Coligny Calendar, which is Gaulish in a Roman alphabet. This calendar has been suggested as maybe being evidence of druidic activity, as it notes festivals and divides the months up into various phases, and some people suggest that maybe it was used to determine the most auspicious times for various activities. There's a fair amount around in the archaeological record too, from fabulous artwork down to a few bones and discolourations in the soil, and now that the focus of archaeological practice has changed, and with the scientific methods, and also such things as the Butser experimental project and ethnoarchaeology, my hope is that in some way we can get close to some appreciation of what might once have been the ordinary everyday. Though of course we can never ever be certain, because there is just so much in human culture that cannot be recorded in material remains, and our own contemporary culture and priorities are so different, and I think you're right, that a lot of images depend what people wrote/write about them, rather than their own representations (and the question of 'Celticness' is another issue again )

For Tolkien - ah yes, I wondered too if there were possibly some Celtic influences in his work ... though I feel that there are resonances from the Celtic and before still in our own culture today, and therefore Tolkien would have been hard pressed to escape them, even if they were only in his unconscious . But I didn't know that he didn't like the Celtic mythos. Did he ever mention why he had this dislike?

And I'm with you on this part of England - there is so much to see. Within walking distance from Uffington (horse and Iron Age hillfort) is Wayland's Smithy , which is a great neolithic barrow, and I find it interesting to see how later people interpreted remains, because it's now named after a Saxon god, and I assume that the barrow was supposed to have been his anvil. (For some reason, whenever I'm at Waylands Smithy I seem to be there always when it's just getting dark or it's pouring with rain ) I spend as much time as possible visiting the prehistoric remains, and last summer went to a number of Iron Age hillforts. That was quite an experience, because after a while I began to feel I was getting, just momentarily, an insight into an ancient mindset - the same thing happened when I visited and went inside this barrow , which is very atmospheric and not a little frightening! (Especially as the batteries in my torch were running very low and eventually gave out )

oops - time to shut up ... like I said, it's a passion with me ...

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Hemel
My passion is the 'Celts' - or, rather more accurately, the Iron Age peoples, especially those in Britain. I'm a heathen though - the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians leave me totally cold, and I'm partisan enough still to be annoyed at the Roman entry into Britain

Me too Where I live is where the Romans first invaded, and I was taught to resent the Romans at a very early age... When I was a kid we used to go to a museum in Dover and put on blue body paint (faintly reminiscent of woad or whatever that stuff was called) and fight people dressed up as Romans

Gaffer, I remember visiting the Uffington white horse a while ago. Truly awe-inspiring

Anyway, I am interested in ancient cultures, but I don't know anything about them I just like what I hear. Also, I love the idea that there are reminders of ancient peoples almost everywhere you go, and especially that in some cases they shaped the landscape into how we know it today.

For example:

Megaliths

Roman

How could anyone not be interested in ancient cultures?

[Earniel]

Ancient cultures... ah, where to start? I like them all. That is, nearly everything until the Romans, after that timeperiod my interests fade.

I'm quite fond of Celtic mythology, especially since it took me quite a while to collect some books on them. At one point all the myths you could find were Roman, Greek and Egyptian, which I had read already numerous times. But I got lucky and celtic myths seemed to become suddenly so popular that you could find them everywhere. And I adore those celtic knots and figures. They're a pain to draw, though. I tried it, though the result was passable the time it took was enormous. Ogham (religious Celtic script) is much simpler and very pretty in it's simplicity.

I'm also quite fond of prehistoric megalithic structures ever since we visited the very special granit menhirs on Corsica when I was young. I also remember considering very long whether I was going to get a tatto in the form of the Uffington-horse. And then I haven't even mentioned those beautiful rockpaintings in the caves of Lascaux, Altamira and others. I'm hoping I'll be able to visit them once in my life.

Inca and Maya myths are tougher to find. The Maya-gods tend to have tonguebreaking names too: Tezcatlipoca, Chalchiulique, Huitlipochli ect.... Quite ironic that Cortez turned up on exactly the same time when they were expecting the return of the god Quetzalquatl. That must have been such an unpleasant surprise.

As a child I wanted to learn mayan hieroglyphs but since only a handful of people even can read them, I gave that up rather early. The South-american art is breathtaking in any case. Think about the inca-walls in which the stones fit so tightly together that you can hardly put a needle between them. I'd like to visit places like Chichen Itza, Palenque, Nazca and such but that's highyl improbable I'm afraid.

The Australian Dreamtime is also very interesting. Though I've never managed to find much on those myths. And yedakis (didgeridoos) have such a pretty sound. I followed a course for it once but I've never been able to nail down circular breathing.

*decides to stop blabbing because she's warming up and because she can go on about this for quite a while*

[Melko Belcha]

I have always had a big interest in the Egyptians, the Greeks, Romans, Mayas, Incas, and Aztecs. I like just about any ancient history, once you start hitting the Dark Ages is where I start loosing interest. The less we know about a certain group of people the more interesed I have in them.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Elfmaster XK
So can you read hieratic then?

Probably not anymore. It's been a couple of years since I even looked at the language, and I mainly studied middle egyptian hieroglyphs, rather than hieratics. What are you studying? Both? Btw: do they offer Sumerian? I always wanted to learn Sumerian - way more interesting than egyptian... not many people do it.

[The Gaffer]

Ah, Hemel, Wayland's Smithy is great; been there two or three times myself.

Have you been into West Kennet barrow at Avebury? VERY COOL, coz you can walk to Silbury Hill, then on to Avebury and have a pint with some bloke dressed as a druid.

Earniel: White Horse tattoo: now that's a grand idea

* lies down till the feeling wears off *

Sun-star: yeah, it's funny that; I can recall being inculcated with some vague anti-Roman, Pictish pride at school, as if the Roman Empire was halted by a bunch of indomitable Scots in kilts.

[Hemel]

West Kennet? Yes, been there, done that, got the robes ... That's a great one, where you can walk in standing upright and see the chambers Wiltshire is awash with stuff, and at one stage I was travelling through to Cardiff so always took that route to visit something on the way. Silbury Hill is phenomenal - I always think of it as being like a prehistoric cathedral. It's the biggest in Europe, I think

Sun-star might know this - there's a hill on the west side of Folkestone in Kent (I think it might be called something like Sugarloaf Hill) that whenever I go past I think is rather like Silbury Hill from some angles ... I've often wondered if part of that was formed by prehistoric people. (Person of Kent, right? not Kentish Person? Ah, and there's another tale of pride - because William the Conqueror (of 1066 fame) isn't called that by the Maids and Men of Kent, so I understand, because he didn't conquer them. He infiltrated with Frenchies instead. I believe he's called something rather less complimentary than Conqueror ... is that right? )

Talking about people in robes - does anyone know if Stonehenge been open the last couple of years at Midsummer? I know they stopped the gatherings for quite a while, but I thought I'd heard they'd started again, and also that there were gatherings at Avebury.

btw, Gaffer, have you ever been to the Rollright Stones? They're neolithic and bronze age, and a bit north of you, I think, and I was there one misty murky winter's morning, when the damp was dripping from the bare trees - it was very atmospheric. Apparently it's in the hands of a trust, and you can hire the place for your own ceremonies - awesome! There's a legend too that you can never count the stones and get the right number because they're really petrified knights, but they move to fool you when you're not looking But certainly when I tried I came up with different numbers of stones each time.

On woad - someone's given me some woad seeds, along with instructions on planting. I'm not the most green-fingered ... but here's hoping for blue fingers this time

And Eärniel - that's swoonworthy, the Uffington horse as a tattoo!

sorry, carried away again ...

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Hemel
btw, Gaffer, have you ever been to the Rollright Stones? They're neolithic and bronze age, and a bit north of you, I think, and I was there one misty murky winter's morning, when the damp was dripping from the bare trees - it was very atmospheric. Apparently it's in the hands of a trust, and you can hire the place for your own ceremonies - awesome! There's a legend too that you can never count the stones and get the right number because they're really petrified knights, but they move to fool you when you're not looking But certainly when I tried I came up with different numbers of stones each time.

Yes, they're very cool. Just sitting there without much ceremony. I love their craggy, eroded look. Must go up there again soon and try the stone-counting thing. Last time, the Gammer, the boy and I had a lovely afternoon making crop circles in the next field. (naughty)

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Elfmaster XK

Lin - Did you read that thing about the Incas that said they knew from reading the sky (like astronomy or something) that they would suffer a catastrophe in a certain year, and then Cortez came and killed them all that time so they didn't fight back? Am not sure that sentence was sensical. I need to find the source...

Yes, I understood the sentence.

I think what you're referring to is Cortés' invasion of the Mexico, home of the Aztecs. The Aztecs believed that their beloved god, Quetzalcoatl, would return, and help the suffering Aztecs. Just before Quetzalcoatl (ashamed because he unwittingly seduced his own sister) left, he apparently said he would return on Ce-Acatl, a date in the Aztec Calendar. The year that this date was to occur, 1519, was the year that the Spaniards invaded. Because of their powerful weapons, ships, armour and horses, the Aztecs believed that this was the sort of host that would accompany Quetzalcoatl, and so they did not deal forcefully with the invaders, giving Cortés' enough time to establish a foothold on the coast and establish alliances with the Aztecs' Indian enemies. Ironic, and sad.

Eärniel, why did you tell me you couldn't find anything about the Dreamtime? Sheesh, I would've told you about it all! There are plenty of books in the library about it.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Hemel
Sun-star might know this - there's a hill on the west side of Folkestone in Kent (I think it might be called something like Sugarloaf Hill) that whenever I go past I think is rather like Silbury Hill from some angles ... I've often wondered if part of that was formed by prehistoric people.

Sugarloaf Hill it is. Apparently it is some kind of Iron Age hill fort. It now overlooks the entrance to the Channel Tunnel and IIRC it’s near the brilliantly-named Devil’s Kneading Trough

(Person of Kent, right? not Kentish Person?

That’s right

Ah, and there's another tale of pride - because William the Conqueror (of 1066 fame) isn't called that by the Maids and Men of Kent, so I understand, because he didn't conquer them. He infiltrated with Frenchies instead. I believe he's called something rather less complimentary than Conqueror ... is that right? )

Only because he actually was illegimate – or partly for that reason anyway By all accounts his brother, who became Earl of Kent, was a lot worse and a lot more hated though.

[Anglorfin]

Having ancestral roots in Scandinavia, I've been fascinated by the Vikings. Most especially their mythology. There is so much about honor and valour in their mythology. Honor and the rite to enter Valhalla through dying in battle or at sea.

To me, the whole story of the world creation and the power balance was a lot more interesting than say, that of the Greeks and Romans. Though Greek and Roman gods had their share of stories, it always seemed more like an afternoon soap opera type of thing rather than an iminent clash of good vs. evil. I guess in a political society you would expect political gods and in a warlike society you would expect more warlike gods.

That's not to say the Norse mythology didn't have it's softer side, like the role of nature in preserving life (Yggdrasill, the World Tree) or the sorrow at the death of Balder.


And I am just curious, how many mythologies say something about a final battle being fought at the end of the world? Or what is the most common belief for the end of the world?

[Elfmaster XK]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Probably not anymore. It's been a couple of years since I even looked at the language, and I mainly studied middle egyptian hieroglyphs, rather than hieratics. What are you studying? Both? Btw: do they offer Sumerian? I always wanted to learn Sumerian - way more interesting than egyptian... not many people do it.

Ah cool. Yeah, I'm with middle egyptian as well. Just had my exam in it today actually. It was really boring except for the mistake I made and remembered making afterwards. I couldn't remember the word for excellent and got it confused with another, so I wrote "thou art a hungry king" instead of excellent. Am so amused I was that stupid. But I'm only just into my first year, gimme a chance. Next year we can do hieratics as well if we want to. The only place I know of that offers Sumerian is Oxford University.

I think what you're referring to is Cortés' invasion of the Mexico, home of the Aztecs. The Aztecs believed that their beloved god, Quetzalcoatl, would return, and help the suffering Aztecs. Just before Quetzalcoatl (ashamed because he unwittingly seduced his own sister) left, he apparently said he would return on Ce-Acatl, a date in the Aztec Calendar. The year that this date was to occur, 1519, was the year that the Spaniards invaded. Because of their powerful weapons, ships, armour and horses, the Aztecs believed that this was the sort of host that would accompany Quetzalcoatl, and so they did not deal forcefully with the invaders, giving Cortés' enough time to establish a foothold on the coast and establish alliances with the Aztecs' Indian enemies. Ironic, and sad.

Actually, it isn't. I just wrote the wrong thing. My bad, I apologise.
This is the book I was talking about. It's possibly not entirely correct, and some people say it's one of those alternative histories. But I thought it was interesting.
http://books.mainseek.com/282R4P1495...inst-Time.html

[Grey_Wolf]

Now I'm trying to find books about the first warriors, but that I've found to be very difficult.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Anglorfin
Having ancestral roots in Scandinavia, I've been fascinated by the Vikings. Most especially their mythology. There is so much about honor and valour in their mythology. Honor and the rite to enter Valhalla through dying in battle or at sea.

To me, the whole story of the world creation and the power balance was a lot more interesting than say, that of the Greeks and Romans. Though Greek and Roman gods had their share of stories, it always seemed more like an afternoon soap opera type of thing rather than an iminent clash of good vs. evil. I guess in a political society you would expect political gods and in a warlike society you would expect more warlike gods.

That's not to say the Norse mythology didn't have it's softer side, like the role of nature in preserving life (Yggdrasill, the World Tree) or the sorrow at the death of Balder.


And I am just curious, how many mythologies say something about a final battle being fought at the end of the world? Or what is the most common belief for the end of the world?

To me, the most fascinating thing about the Norse mythology was its unrelenting pessimism. It's pretty easy to be a warrior for the forces of Righteousness when you know you're going to win- but to know you're bound to lose and to still fight the Good Fight.....

[Elvengirl]

I have always been interested in ancient history. In school it was one of my favorite subjects. Celts, Greeks, the Middle Ages, Romans, the renaissance, Egyptians, prehistoric man, to name a few. I enjoy learning how we used to live and how much tihngs have changed to become the civilization in which we live today.

Gaffer, those were interesting stories. I can see the similaries to the Silmarillion. I did read a book a few years ago bout the White Horse. Britian's history has always greatly interested me and I'd love to go there and see it.

oh I don't have anymore time, I gotta run.................

[Falagar]

We're doing American history at school now, yay!

I'm reading a book on the Norse myths, very interesting (the author often connects and compares the old Norse gods with known Celtic gods and the Roman gods).

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
Now I'm trying to find books about the first warriors, but that I've found to be very difficult.

the first warriors of what?

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
the first warriors of what?

Like we pretty much know that the Phoenicians were the first true sailors, there ought to be books about the first warriors.

[hectorberlioz]

I was always fascinated by Greek and Roman history.
then Celtic.

I think that the Romans are by far the most interesting.
lol, the romans thought that the celts were barbaric for wearing pants!

[Falagar]

All I can remember is that the first warriors to fight with iron-weapons in Europe were the Celts (if I remember correctly) who swept over Europe, they had invented a way to form weapons from iron.