04-23-2007, 01:41 PM | #21 |
Hobbit
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Se Habla Espanol en Middle-Earth
Yes, you are correct about all that. I had noticed Orcs calling 'hola' to each other, and rabbits being called 'coneys', whereas Spanish for rabbit is conejo, or 'coney' for short. This is the kind of thing that I would have expected from JK Rowling, not JRR Tolkien. Maybe he just put stuff like that in there to see if anyone would notice.
Hmmm - I missed the pop gun reference, but that is another excellent example of what we were talking about here. Good job. The other points I am not going to argue about or defend, but it is pretty clear, for example, that Gandalf said that nearly all mithril mined by the dwarves had come into Sauron's possession, leaving very little to none to repair the gates of Minas Tirith. There is no wiggle-room here except for the possibility that someone might have picked through the ruins of Barad-dur to find it. Considering that Aragorn had said that men would not be able to enter Minas Morgul for many years, due to its evil state, it is hard to imagine that anyone would be allowed to pick through the ruins of the Dark Tower, Sauron's own abode. It is possible, of course, but Tolkien gives no hint of such. I believe it to be just another oversight. I am aware of the controversy surrounding Bombadil and have read numerous of the essays that detail who or what he might be. But Tolkien gave us the answer - he is an enigma - and not Aule the Smith or Illuvatar himself. But he is obviously living and so either he or Gandalf must be wrong, and I think the odds are that it is Gandalf. I look upon this as more of an inconsistency than an error, and maybe there is some deeper explanation, if Gandalf knew more than I am crediting him for. The same area where I read the Bombadil essays addresses the situation of why the Eagles did not carry Frodo and the Ring to Mount Doom. There it was concluded that Sauron was aware of the possibility and thus had arranged for Fell-Beasts to patrol the skies of Mordor ceaselessly. Myself, I always wondered just why he did not garrison a patrol of Orcs at the Chambers of Fire tp prevent any possibility of a clandestine approach. Comments and discussion welcomed, but I see that there is already a clamor beginning to close the thread. Sorry if anyone's feelings have been hurt, but Tolkien's work, good as it is, is obviously not perfect. Last edited by Wally : 04-23-2007 at 04:04 PM. |
04-24-2007, 08:58 AM | #22 | |
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As Sherlock Holmes put it, the biggest clue is the dog that didn't bark. There was no such discussion. |
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04-24-2007, 09:02 AM | #23 | |
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On the latter point, on the one hand, what imbecile would leave his one significant point of vulnerability unguarded during wartime?! On the other hand, anything is possible. On the former point, see my immediately prior response (considering the Eagles had just flew Gandalf from Orthanc to Rivendell, it strains credulation to explain the failure of anyone at Elrond's Council to even broach the possibility of flying the ring into Mordor as anything but either an oversight or a deliberate omission so as to make the remainder of the story possible). |
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04-24-2007, 11:32 AM | #24 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-24-2007 at 11:59 AM. |
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04-24-2007, 12:54 PM | #25 |
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1) Glass-making is thousands of years old; the Romans commonly used glass beakers.
2) Coney: Etymology: Middle English conies, plural, from Anglo-French conis, plural of conil, from Latin cuniculus I seem to recall somewhere that Tolkien disliked the word rabbit as being too obviously derived from French. Of course the Shire in general is anachronous, being a piece of 19th C England dropped into a Dark Age Europe.
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04-24-2007, 02:35 PM | #26 |
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Wow - GrayMouser and Wayfarer dropping in! Yay! *waves*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-24-2007, 04:44 PM | #27 | |
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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04-24-2007, 09:50 PM | #28 |
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Source
Jon S.:
I believe it was an essay that I read via a link on the Encyclopedia of Arda, but since there are about 1000 of them in there, I cannot at the moment lay my hands on it. I'll keep looking. But it was just an essay that addressed this issue, with someone's speculation as to what must have happened. No official Tolkien position, of course. |
04-25-2007, 01:16 PM | #29 |
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Eagles
I always thought the Eagle plan wouldn't work because we know that:
A: Sauron can control the weather. B: Sauron can put up some mighty impressive pyrotechnics. Witness the display at the outset of the Army of Minas Morgul and at his Downfall. Hence, I thought with his seeing eye Sauron would be albe to spot the Eagle incursion and fire off his "Lightning Bolts" or what ever you want to call them at a speed where they would hit before even the Eagles saw them coming. Since the Eagles played a large role in the Battle of Five Armies I doubt Sauron would have forgotten them. |
04-25-2007, 02:46 PM | #30 | |
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04-25-2007, 02:53 PM | #31 | |||
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04-25-2007, 08:54 PM | #32 |
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I'm unconvinced by anything posted so far about the Eagles. I just reread Gandalf speech to the Council. He tells all about Gwaihir's rescue.
May I remind you folks ... "It is way too risky for the eagles to carry the Ring into Mordor; Sauron would spot them immediately." Some individuals assume that Sauron would immediately notice the eagles flying into his realm and would understand the nature of the threat. Under closer examination, it is not so obvious that Sauron would notice the eagles. How would Sauron identify the threat? One possibility is that he would see the eagles approaching by means of the Palant*r. However, I think it can be strongly argued that the Palant*r would not show the eagles unless Sauron directed the Palant*r to focus on the particular area where they are flying; the Palant*r is not an alarm bell. Further, we know that the flight path charted above is not where his attention was mainly directed: "...His eye watches that way [the Black Gate] all the time..." (II, 294) "No, no indeed," said Gollum. "Hobbits must see, must try to understand. He does not expect attack that way [Cirith Ungol]. His eye is all around, but it attends more to some places than to others. He can't see everything at once, not yet. [...] He thinks that no one can come to the Moon-tower without fighting big battle at the bridges, or getting lots of boats which they cannot hide and He will know about." (II, 316) The Ered Lithui are a chain of mountains 300-400 miles long (roughly the distance between Boston and Washington DC, or between London and Glasgow), and it is considered impossible to enter Mordor by climbing over them; even one as sneaky and as skilled at climbing as Gollum knows of no way into Mordor except thru Cirith Gorgor and Cirith Ungol. For this reason, it is unlikely that Sauron would devote much attention to watching the Ered Lithui or the uninhabited Brown Lands. There appear to be certain kinds of things which attract Sauron's attention, such as Frodo's gaze when he is seated on Amon Hen and is wearing the Ring. Sauron also is immediately aware when Frodo puts on the Ring in Sammath Naur. As long as Frodo does not put on the Ring during the eagle flight, however, it is not obvious that Sauron's attention would be attracted. We know that Frodo went on foot all the way thru Mordor from Cirith Ungol to Mt. Doom carrying the Ring without Sauron spotting him; so the mere fact that something is carrying the Ring doesn't mean that Sauron will immediately spot it. The only thing which makes an eagle more visible is the fact that it's flying. However, the eagle has the advantage that there's far less time for Sauron to spot it, while the Ring-carrying Frodo was on foot in Mordor for many days. It's important to note that once the eagles fly into Mordor, the game is no longer one of stealth but speed. Even if Sauron does immediately notice the eagles, he will not necessarily be able to respond in time. We aren't told exactly how long it took the eagles to fly from the Black Gate to Mt. Doom, but my guess is that it could not have been over an hour, and the flight I propose above is slightly shorter. After Frodo and Sam entered Mordor thru Cirith Gorgor, Sauron had fully ten days to contemplate the purpose of their mission into Mordor, and did not realize that their plan was to destroy the Ring until the last moment. Given that the Mouth of Sauron refers to the intruders as "spies", Sauron's most likely thought would be that the eagles are merely flying over his realm for reconnaisance purposes. Thus, even if Sauron notices the eagles, his response would not necessarily be an appropriate one to prevent the Ring from being destroyed (such as having the Nazgûl fly directly to Mt. Doom to intercept the eagles). "Sauron would send the flying Nazgûl after the eagles." It is likely that he would. However, there is a very good change that the Nazgûl would not reach the eagles in time to foil the threat. First, the Nazgûl are almost certainly not always airborne; the flying mounts must rest sometimes. It would presumably take at least a few minutes to take the flying mounts out of their stables, harness them, and get the Nazgûl aloft. We are not told where the flying mounts are stabled (Barad-dûr would be a fair guess), but unless it is very close to Mt. Doom, the Nazgûl have little chance of catching up with the eagles unless they chanced to be aloft already. Second, the Nazgûl would have to be able to fly faster than the eagles to be able to catch up with them. We are not specifically told whether the eagles are faster than the Nazgûl, but there is at least an oblique suggestion that they are: "Then come, and let your brother go with us, and some other of your folk who is most swift! For we have need of speed greater than any wind, outmatching the wings of the Nazgûl." (III, 280; emphasis is mine.) Finally, we know that the eagles are willing to attack the flying Nazgûl, because they do so at the last battle before the Black Gate. An entirely possible series of events would be for some of the eagles to attack the Nazgûl and hold them back long enough to allow the eagle carrying the Ringbearer to reach Mt. Doom. http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/eagles.html |
04-25-2007, 09:01 PM | #33 | |
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04-26-2007, 04:00 AM | #34 |
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Well, obviously, the answer to the Eagles conundrum is that it would make a crap story
But seriously, it would. At the Council it is discussed whether to send the Ring over the Sea, but that it would be refused because it is a Middle Earth problem which must be dealt with in Middle Earth. The Eagles don't have a forwarding address. They decide when they want to intervene. Given those two, it is for the "free peoples" to sort out by themselves. |
04-26-2007, 04:03 AM | #35 | |
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Elrond: So, I was saying to her just the other day, "Okay, look sweetheart, I know he's a ranger, and he's hot, and everything, but lets be honest--why give up the undying lands for a man who wouldn't know shampoo if it bit him on his grungy ass?" Gandalf: SO true. Pippin: *popping in with a StarElf's carton* Okay, I have a latte, two blacks, one lembas smoothie (light on the whipped cream), and a Caramel Coney Cake. Who gets what? Elrond: Latte. Gandalf: Smoothie. Glorfindel: I have one of the blacks. Elrond: But back to the topic at hand--the eagles. I just don't know... they are -such- resource guzzlers! Couldn't we just send them in on something more environment friendly? Like a sparrow? *sips* Gandalf: Don't be rediculous--can you imagine? The Dwarven media would be all over us for that one. I can read the headlines now--"FATE OF MIDDLE-EARTH PUT IN CLAWS OF DOOM" *sip*... *wheeze* *SPLUTTER!* WTF is this?!!?! I said a LEMBAS smoothie! Pippin: It is a Lembas Smoothie! Gandalf: FOOL of a Took! I know for a fact this is -not- organic! Last edited by Tessar : 04-26-2007 at 04:06 AM. |
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04-26-2007, 07:59 AM | #36 | |
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As for the former, I disagree. There are ways of contacting the Eagles. Gandalf and Galadrial likely could have. Radagast, I believe, certainly could have (of course, he'd have to be asked, too). |
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04-26-2007, 09:39 AM | #37 |
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Dunno about the second part. I can't think of anywhere in the whole kaboodle where Eagles were contacted by people, rather than the other way around. |
04-26-2007, 09:55 AM | #38 | |
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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04-26-2007, 09:57 AM | #39 | |
Elf Lord
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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04-26-2007, 12:03 PM | #40 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Great one, Tessar
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-26-2007 at 12:05 PM. |
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