The Teaching of History

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
In a republic, the people elect representatives to speak for them and to, well, represent them. In a democracy, the people themselves vote on anything and everything- it would be impossible for America to be a democracy due to its population.

Actually you are wrong - we are a Democratic Republic - and we are the FIRST country to be ruled by a WRITTEN Constitution.

The founding fathers took the best of the republic and the best of democracy and created the US government from that. And yes - I know about Greece and Rome - a lot of their ideas came from there - that still does not mean that the Modern world is not based on the US system of government - which it is. I know that is so hard for you and many others to accept - but it's a fact.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Draken
...how did he legally gain dictatorial powers and start to imprison and eventually kill his own citizens within a few years of his coming to power under this constitution? And that's before he started World War 2...

From there you can maybe understand the set of circumstances he exploited and be able to apply that knowledge to better understanding the present - which to me is the whole point of history.

I'm not familiar with that - but I would say it's the same reason why if England wanted to just do that it could. We have a Constitution that protects us - with a division of powers to keep each in check. The President can't do anything without Congress, Congress can't do anything without the President and the Supreme Court makes sure that no law is passed that violates the Constitution. This is demonstrated by the fact that Indiana was required to stop doing drug road blocks as well as many other examples - because it violated the Constitution.

In Britain and many other countries their Constitution isn't well protected - it can be put aside by a powerful leader. It is also very hard to change our constitution - which protects our freedoms even more.

Also - that states every German and so forth in the German Constitution - didn't Hitler basically declare that Jews and other's weren't Germans?

And by the way Radagast - each state has it's own form of government. Not all the state governments work the same.

[Janny]

I think the boat should be studied. Every student should learn never to employ a boat in a critical diplomatic situation. Lord Lytton during Machuria say. 6 months to get there, by which time the thing he was supposed to be investigating in view of preventing had practically finished.
Damn boats...

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I know that is so hard for you and many others to accept - but it's a fact.

No, it's not a fact. It's an opinion.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
No, it's not a fact. It's an opinion.

No - it's not an opinion - it is a fact. I know that's hard for you to swallow and accept - but sometimes the truth hurts. Europe followed the US. Australia, France, Europe in general followed the US model and the Constitution. As did Japan and all modern democracies. I can go on - I have posted the list of countries - because Fenir wanted to deny that Australia was influenced by the US government - when I had to QUOTE Australias OWN official website where they talk about how their government was heavily modeled after the US government. People a year ago wanted to deny that France was modeled after the US government and what happened in the Constitutional Convention - until I quoted DIRECTLY from the official French Government website where it talks about it.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
No - it's not an opinion - it is a fact. I know that's hard for you to swallow and accept - but sometimes the truth hurts. Europe followed the US. Australia, France, Europe in general followed the US model and the Constitution. As did Japan and all modern democracies. I can go on - I have posted the list of countries - because Fenir wanted to deny that Australia was influenced by the US government - when I had to QUOTE Australias OWN official website where they talk about how their government was heavily modeled after the US government. People a year ago wanted to deny that France was modeled after the US government and what happened in the Constitutional Convention - until I quoted DIRECTLY from the official French Government website where it talks about it.

Japan, dear JD, is a monarchy. No one doubts that the U.S. influenced nations but I object to the term that it is what the modern world is built on.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
Japan, dear JD, is a monarchy.

Maybe you should learn a bit about history before making such a statement. The Monarchy has VERY limited power after we worked with them to develop a constitution and so forth after World War II. The Emporer was forced to give up his power after world war II my dear Radagast.

It looks like you need a history lesson - or else maybe Eaton only teaches history as it appeared BEFORE Britain lost it's empire. Those were the good old days - weren't they - the sun never setting over the British Empire?

By the way - you are aware that Japan has a Prime Minister right?

You can learn a bit about the Japanese government here - Prime Minster of Japan and his Cabinet

Emperor

The Emperor, who is the symbol of Japan and of the unity of the people of Japan, has no powers related to government, but he performs such acts in matters of state, with the advice and approval of the Cabinet, as the promulgation of amendments of the Constitution, laws, cabinet orders and treaties, the convocation of the Diet, the dissolution of the House of Representatives, the proclamation of general election of members of the Diet, the attestation of the appointment and dismissal of Ministers of State etc., and of full powers and credentials of Ambassadors and Ministers, the awarding of honors and the reception of foreign Ambassadors and Ministers. He also appoints the Prime Minister and the Chief Judge of the Supreme Court as designated by the Diet and the Cabinet respectively.

In this respect, the position of the Emperor in postwar Japan differs from that in the prewar days when the Emperor was the source of sovereign power.

The Imperial Throne is dynastic and descendant from father to son.

You can find out more here - Fundamental Structure of the Japanese Government

No one doubts that the U.S. influenced nations but I object to the term that it is what the modern world is built on.

You object to it becuase it's not built around England. But it's the truth - the modern form of deomcracy and government is based on the US government and on the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia. We led the way for France, Europe in general, England, Australia and all other democracies around the world. People fighting for freedoms around the world do not hold up the Magna Carta which actually only protected the rights of the Dukes and Earls - but they hold up the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

[Lady Magpie]

I thought we were talking about important pieces of history for people to learn here. . .

I think it's important to teach world history, not just western history and US history. There's more to the world than Western Europe and the US.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lady Magpie
I thought we were talking about important pieces of history for people to learn here. . .

I think it's important to teach world history, not just western history and US history. There's more to the world than Western Europe and the US.

Yes there is - but American history is a LARGE part of world history too. Also - there was ONLY one part of the US History that I mentioned and that was the Constitutional Convention of Philadelphia. That has affected the world incredibly and is the originator of the modern governments and freedoms we enjoy today. By understanding what went on in the Constitutional Conventional - people will better understand their own constitutions and governments - including Asian countries such as Japan.

Also - it seems like some people need an education in Japanese history - which my last post contained information about.

[Lady Magpie]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Yes there is - but American history is a LARGE part of world history too. Also - there was ONLY one part of the US History that I mentioned and that was the Constitutional Convention of Philadelphia. That has affected the world incredibly and is the originator of the modern governments and freedoms we enjoy today. By understanding what went on in the Constitutional Conventional - people will better understand their own constitutions and governments - including Asian countries such as Japan.

Also - it seems like some people need an education in Japanese history - which my last post contained information about.

Jerseydevil, I never said it wasn't important or shouldn't be taught. I was merely pointing out that there's more to the world that ought to be considered, as well. And we've only gotten so influential in the last hundred years, really.

No one's trying to offend you here, you do know that, right?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lady Magpie
Jerseydevil, I never said it wasn't important or shouldn't be taught. I was merely pointing out that there's more to the world that ought to be considered, as well. And we've only gotten so influential in the last hundred years, really.

I agree - but people have suggested other countries and regions. If Radagast wants to argue about the influence of the US Constitution and our form of government around the world - I will.

No one's trying to offend you here, you do know that, right?

Well - going by Radagast's comments - I'd say that there is someone here that is.

[Lady Magpie]

I really don't think he is. But that is Radagast, and not me. . .

While I think the writing of the constitution and so on should be studied, I don't think it should be taken as the sole influence for democracy. They got their ideas from somewhere; therefore I think the origins of those ideas should be studied as well. Locke, Hobbes, Roussou. . .Enlightenment philosophers would be important as well. Jefferson didn't make up everything on his own.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lady Magpie
I really don't think he is. But that is Radagast, and not me. . .

Yes it is - but you seemed to have a problem with the talk about the Constitution - which was a result of him.

While I think the writing of the constitution and so on should be studied, I don't think it should be taken as the sole influence for democracy. They got their ideas from somewhere; therefore I think the origins of those ideas should be studied as well. Locke, Hobbes, Roussou. . .Enlightenment philosophers would be important as well. Jefferson didn't make up everything on his own.

yes - which would be studied in the context of the US Constitution. The founding fathers were well read in Greek and Roman history too. They got their ideas from many sources - but before the Constitutional Convention - most of them were just ideas. The several states had already started using many of them in their state constitutions though. But before the US they were just ideas on paper.

BTW Jefferson didn't even write the Constitution - he only wrote the Decaration of Independence. Jefferson was in France during the Constitutional Convention.

[Lady Magpie]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

Yes it is - but you seemed to have a problem with the talk about the Constitution - which was a result of him.[/b]

I did? It was? Whatever. . .

yes - which would be studied in the context of the US Constitution. The founding fathers were well read in Greek and Roman history too. They got their ideas from many sources - but before the Constitutional Convention - most of them were just ideas. The several states had already started using many of them in their state constitutions though. But before the US they were just ideas on paper.

So all of those sources should be studied, perhaps in a way that would lead do the Constitutional Convention--which never would have happened without those ideas and all of those many sources. We may be incredibly powerful and influential in the world, but we weren't always and ideas on paper are how things get put into practice.

BTW Jefferson didn't even write the Constitution - he only wrote the Decaration of Independence. Jefferson was in France during the Constitutional Convention.

Yes, I know. . .but you did mention the importance of that document as well.

[Draken]

Constitutions are interesting, but I was more thinking of something more objective than "they're great and stop dictators" - particularly having pointed out one that didn't! If you look at the Wiemar Republic consitution it had guards and checks in it - but Hitler managed to satisfy them or get round them. So from there you would think about what changes would have been needed to stop that set of circumstances arising. The American constitution has needed a number of amendments over many years: the Wiemar constitution was only a decade or so old and had to contend with the aftermath of a disastrous defeat in war followed by the sudden rise of Bolshevism and the Great Depression - a lot of pressure on a new republic with a new constitution.

By contrast the weaknesses of not having a written constitution are also the strengths; the constitution of the UK has evolved over 800 years by a combination of convention, common law and parliamentary act. While it is hard to point to set reasons why something should not happen, it is equally hard to make a case for why things SHOULD - which is what anyone wanting to become a Hitler-style legal dictator would need to do.

For me one important lesson would be that whatever the democracy, the electorate needs to engage brain before voting. If you don't, then the shiniest constitution in the world won't help you.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

It looks like you need a history lesson - or else maybe Eaton only teaches history as it appeared BEFORE Britain lost it's empire. Those were the good old days - weren't they - the sun never setting over the British Empire?

I think you have something of a chip on your shoulder about me having gone to Eton.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
I think you have something of a chip on your shoulder about me having gone to Eton.

No - just the fact that you throw it around so much - I find it rather funny - considering what a prestigeous school it is that you didn't even know that Japan is a democracy.

If you bother recalling by the way - I used to defend you repeatedly - including in your Eaton thread. So don't even say I have a problem with you going to Eaton - I have a problem with your attitude.

[Radagast]

I was aware that Japan has a democracy of sorts, but, like the United Kingdom, is it is a constitutional monarchy, therefore I think you oughn't to hold it up as a prime example of democracy.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Draken
Constitutions are interesting, but I was more thinking of something more objective than "they're great and stop dictators" - particularly having pointed out one that didn't! If you look at the Wiemar Republic consitution it had guards and checks in it - but Hitler managed to satisfy them or get round them. So from there you would think about what changes would have been needed to stop that set of circumstances arising. The American constitution has needed a number of amendments over many years: the Wiemar constitution was only a decade or so old and had to contend with the aftermath of a disastrous defeat in war followed by the sudden rise of Bolshevism and the Great Depression - a lot of pressure on a new republic with a new constitution.

By contrast the weaknesses of not having a written constitution are also the strengths; the constitution of the UK has evolved over 800 years by a combination of convention, common law and parliamentary act. While it is hard to point to set reasons why something should not happen, it is equally hard to make a case for why things SHOULD - which is what anyone wanting to become a Hitler-style legal dictator would need to do.

yeah - but without a written Constitution - there is nothing to prevent your freedoms from being haphazardly infringed upon. A lot of what Britain does - would not even be allowed under our Constitution. Also - our Constitution is very hard to change - so can not just be changed in the heat of a moment. It protects our freedoms - the Bill of Rights is one of the most important parts of our Constitution there is. The states would not even agree to signing the Constitution without a guarantee that those Amendments would be the first in there.

For me one important lesson would be that whatever the democracy, the electorate needs to engage brain before voting. If you don't, then the shiniest constitution in the world won't help you.

The Constitution protects our freedoms, disctates how the government works. It takes a super majority to even propose an amendment to the US Consitution.

Having a brain in order to vote is a different question - one of the reasons why I am completely against mandatory voting. Which has been discussed in another thread. You can also argue that people should have extensive understanding of history before being able to vote - but it is impossible to do that. My mother's main argument was that US government should be a mandatory subject for junior high and high school students in the US and I agree with that. Too few people understand our Constitution or how our government works - yet they vote.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

Having a brain in order to vote is a different question - one of the reasons why I am completely against mandatory voting. Which has been discussed in another thread. You can also argue that people should have extensive understanding of history before being able to vote - but it is impossible to do that. My mother's main argument was that US government should be a mandatory subject for junior high and high school students in the US and I agree with that. Too few people understand our Constitution or how our government works - yet they vote.

But JD nor do most have an interest. It is like school sport, generally people's experiences of compulsory exercise at school sour them on it for a lifetime. No teenager wants to sit in a class and listen to the countless 'Amendments' and 'Bills' and the other twaddle you cite so religiously.