muslims PART 2

[Nerdanel]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

This brought tears to my eyes: http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCont...ss,-servi.aspx

It is very nice to see something like this in the news every now and then as well.

[Grey_Wolf]

In the wake of the suicide bomberr blowing himself to bits in the very centre of Stockholm, I've often thought about the reason why sensible muslims do go out in force and show their disgust and rightous anger of being collectively blamed for these insane acts. Are they afraid or do they secretly agree with the concept of killing off all "infidels"?

There are more than a quarter million muslims in Sweden. Think of the enourmous impact a national gathering of protest of 350 000 people would have on the general view on Islam and suiced bombers.

I think the ripples of this pebble would spread all over the world until the minority of the insane and religiously misguided would cease to be.

What do you think?

[Earniel]

I have thought about that too, but I ultimatedly think it is never as simple as that.

For instance, I don't feel the urge to make a public denouncement when somebody of my religion or culture does something repulsive or insanely stupid. Then I can't expect others to do the same. Also there are vast differences in customs, culture and even religious beliefs within the islam. Ordinary muslims may not even consider these bombers to be of their religion.

Besides violence by islamitic terrorists isn't only targetted at non-muslims, sometimes it is also geared at other islamitic factions, just because they have other religious ideas. I can understand ordinary muslims not wanting to make a target of themselves.

Also, if I recall correctly, islam has no structure of religious leaders such as christianity. Every imam is pretty much the same level as the other. If there was to be a protest, specifically from the muslim community, then it would have to start at grass-root level, and it's not very easy to do that.

[Nerdanel]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

In the wake of the suicide bomberr blowing himself to bits in the very centre of Stockholm, I've often thought about the reason why sensible muslims do go out in force and show their disgust and rightous anger of being collectively blamed for these insane acts. Are they afraid or do they secretly agree with the concept of killing off all "infidels"?

did they ever figure out if he was completely alone in doing this? as far as i know,
he wasn't part of any larger organisation, but i might be wrong.

it's just interesting to see that without knowing those facts about this guy, people never hesitated to call him a terrorist, and his act an act of terrorism. i so far haven't seen anyone call the (white, non-muslim) guy who shot senator giffords and several other people a terrorist. if he had been an american muslim arab, would the reaction have been the same? to me, it seems that lately (after 2001), in the definition for the word 'terrorist', 'muslim' has been a given. terror of course isn't something that only muslims cause or are behind, now or ever. still, the term seems to be too easily used to any criminal act a muslim carries out (in the west), but never to the criminal acts of anyone else.

what do you think?

[Grey_Wolf]

It might be that the terms arab, muslim and terrorist are bunched together in one evil denomination, but have the sensible muslims done anything to distance themselves from these lunatics who seek to defame Islam.

There was a infinitesimal trickle of Swedish muslims who protested against this act of a complete and utter maniac. A trickle mind you.

Are they afraid of their "fellow" believers? Are the sunni scared of the Shiit or vice versa.

I still think that all muslims, who do not want to be, as I said, collectively blamed, for what a violently deranged, religiously misguided group of lunatics do, should take a stand, be they sunni or shiit, and show an utter determination to protest and fight these maniacs and their incessant attempts to murder themselves, and, indiscriminately, innocent bystanders, whether they be of a faction of Islam or any other creed.

Is that too much to ask?

If Americans began attacking other Americans with the sole purpose of killing as many of their countrymen as they possibly could that would be considered acts of terrorism.

The wholesale murders of pupils by insane gunmen, that time and again, occur in the USA, could perhaps also be called terrorism.

The IRA killed British troops and Irish Protestants and that was considered terrorism.

But, did they ever blow themselves to bits? Was their purpose to kill themselves, as well their victims?

That is the marked difference between Islam and the other creeds. Christians, Jews and Hindi would never even think of doing any such thing. In fact, it is a major sin.

Should we merely just say: We cant do anything about it, so forget any notion that you have to the contrary.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

It might be that the terms arab, muslim and terrorist are bunched together in one evil denomination, but have the sensible muslims done anything to distance themselves from these lunatics who seek to defame Islam.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

This brought tears to my eyes: http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCont...ss,-servi.aspx

See link.

[Nerdanel]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

It might be that the terms arab, muslim and terrorist are bunched together in one evil denomination, but have the sensible muslims done anything to distance themselves from these lunatics who seek to defame Islam.

There was a infinitesimal trickle of Swedish muslims who protested against this act of a complete and utter maniac. A trickle mind you.

Are they afraid of their "fellow" believers? Are the sunni scared of the Shiit or vice versa.

I still think that all muslims, who do not want to be, as I said, collectively blamed, for what a violently deranged, religiously misguided group of lunatics do, should take a stand, be they sunni or shiit, and show an utter determination to protest and fight these maniacs and their incessant attempts to murder themselves, and, indiscriminately, innocent bystanders, whether they be of a faction of Islam or any other creed.

Is that too much to ask?

If Americans began attacking other Americans with the sole purpose of killing as many of their countrymen as they possibly could that would be considered acts of terrorism.

The wholesale murders of pupils by insane gunmen, that time and again, occur in the USA, could perhaps also be called terrorism.

The IRA killed British troops and Irish Protestants and that was considered terrorism.

But, did they ever blow themselves to bits? Was their purpose to kill themselves, as well their victims?

That is the marked difference between Islam and the other creeds. Christians, Jews and Hindi would never even think of doing any such thing. In fact, it is a major sin.

Should we merely just say: We cant do anything about it, so forget any notion that you have to the contrary.

i do understand why you want all swedish muslims to stand up and protest against the suicide bomber in sweden.. but i think it's a bit simple-minded, if i can say so. first of all, they probably don't consider themselves to have anything in common with the extremists that act in that way. everytime you hear of a male having killed his wife in the domestic terrorism that we see in every country (no, i'm not saying females are the only victims of domestic abuse), do you go out and protest on the streets, to make sure people don't think that's what you stand for, just because you happen to be of the same sex? did all christians in the us go out on the streets to protest against what the kkk were doing?

i guess it's not fair enough to assume that people will be able to be reasonable and realize that those completely normal citizens, who happen to believe in another version of the same god, have nothing at all to do with what the extremists do. extremists use certain beliefs, ideas for their own purpose and turn them into something they're not. why is it up to the people whose ideas have been stolen to stand up and defend themselves? who are we to accuse them?

it is easy, far too easy, to fall for the picture western media paints of arabs and muslims; to only see the acts by extremists and fundamentalists and not see what everyday arabs and muslims do. rarely, we get something like the case that Gwai brought up, reported in the media. and it's usually not main-stream media either. without digging a bit deeper, we have to understand that the information we get is highly biased, and if there's something in there we really don't understand, it's probably due to the lack of sufficient information or us being naive.

i don't really see why the suicide part of the attacks are important enough to say that 'only muslims do this'. there are acts of terrorism by christians, jews and hindus that muslims might consider a sin. to only mention a few acts of terrorism by christians or christian terrorist groups, we have the ku klux klan, the st. bartholomew's day massacre, the christian national liberation front of tripura and the sabra and shatila massacre in lebanon, where palestinian muslims were massacred by lebanese christians while under the supervision of the israeli army. and that's just a few. so i wouldn't try to separate what the extremist muslims are doing too much from what other extremist religious people are and have been up to.

of course we shouldn't just stand idly by, but simplifying the world into black and white and not understanding the background or the actual reasons (poor mental health, anyone? desperation due to living under occupation all your life, anyone?) behind these acts of 'terrorism' is the most counter-productive thing to do.

[Grey_Wolf]

Thanks, Gwai! Then perhaps, to a degree, it has already begun.

[Grey_Wolf]

Sorry for being a bit naive and uninformed. You are quite right. Christians arent blameless, neither are any other creed. Just as you mentioned the northern army massacres of hugenots.

And, yes, the propaganda of the media does have a share in the blame of the influence on people's views about muslims.

And mass-protests would probably not work anyway, so in this you are quite correct too.

Too many conflicting emotions and cultural differenses.

[inked]

Pakistan and its laws ...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articl...an_533702.html


Do note in the lead paragraph the notations of the disproportionate application.

I seem to recall an European encounter with this sort of "blasphemy" which involved a cartoon.

[inked]

Remember the Ground Zero Mosque controversies?

I believe they are back. The New York Post had this article 1-30-11.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/g...lADqlz8Et5CuTP


Not really unexpected since it is a Muslim project and they do have definite beliefs.

Note the religious remarks about people who reject Islam, in addition to the more inflammatory remarks about homosexual behavior.

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by inked

Remember the Ground Zero Mosque controversies?

I believe they are back. The New York Post had this article 1-30-11.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/g...lADqlz8Et5CuTP


Not really unexpected since it is a Muslim project and they do have definite beliefs.

Note the religious remarks about people who reject Islam, in addition to the more inflammatory remarks about homosexual behavior.

While I agree that those beliefs about homsexuals are inflammatory, I will defend the rights of Southern Baptists to build churches wherever they want.

[GrayMouser]

Suggest you google "homosexuality causes abuse" for a torrent of articles- almost all from right-wing sources such as conservapedia and Regent University- agreeing with Abdallah Adhami.This is a common belief among Christian Fundamentalists and apparently among Islamic fundies as well.

Funny how the Murdoch-run NY Post, among others. manages to totally overlook such inflammatory remarks when made by people who are not Muslims- the Murdoch press and right-wingers in general being in the forefront of the struggle for gay rights and all.

[GrayMouser]

Look, a couple of months ago a Belgian Roman Catholic Bishop said AIDS was a punishment from God, and was rightly rebuked by the Catholic Church.

A couple of weeks ago a Russian Orthodox bishop caused a storm of controversy by saying women who wear mini-skirts should not be surprised if they get raped.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org...odoxChurch.htm

He too was rebuked by his Church.

As for Adhami:

The community center's organizers have sought to distance themselves from Adhami's views. The imam was first identified this month as a "senior adviser," but organizers have since said he is only an adviser. They also said his views do not reflect those of the project.

Again, if someone was actually concerned about outrageous things religious leaders say about the rights of gays and women you'd think one of the many cases that do not involve Islam would occasionally show up on the radar- but somehow that never seems to happen.

I'm reminded of Jon Stewart's Senior Black Correspondent Larry Wilmore's complaints about Black History Month:

"White people have to pretend they care about black people, black people have to pretend they care about history...."