11-18-2005, 02:59 PM | #341 | |
Quasi Evil
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I love it when you throw me meat balls rian...
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-18-2005, 03:06 PM | #342 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Why don't you bold the word BEFORE the word you bolded? I think percentage-wise, he is totally correct.
"NO muslim EVER protests against terrorism" does NOT equal "essentially none have demonstrated".
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-18-2005 at 03:07 PM. |
11-18-2005, 03:15 PM | #343 | |
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11-18-2005, 03:23 PM | #344 | |
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another one
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11-18-2005, 03:42 PM | #345 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-18-2005, 04:41 PM | #346 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I would hope a doctor would not put an "essentially dead" person into the morgue. I imagine he would lose his license!
Seriously, to me, there is quite an important difference.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-18-2005, 04:41 PM | #347 | ||||
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Peace doesn't sell. Why is it, then, that I've seen endless, and I mean endless material on anti-war protests concerning Iraq? And anti-war pressure in Italy, Spain and Britain, has all made the news regularly. Peace talks in Darfur between the rebels and the government made headlines. Gay-rights freedom rallies frequently make headlines. My suspicion is that a more reasonable interpretation of the silence concerning Muslim peace rallies is simply that there simply haven't been many big moves or big rallies. Much of what is happening is, I expect, smaller scale. Sometimes individual communities might take action, or organizations here and there, but nothing really big. I've been checking BBC international news most days since September 11, yet I've seen very little action on the part of the Muslim community to cleanse its name. Rather, just a few days (or maybe a couple weeks ago? My memory on the time is not excellent.), President Bush and Tony Blair met in a large conference with Muslim leaders, trying to convince them to take a more strong and visible anti-violence position. Quote:
Even historically, you'll find that the pattern remains constant. When you look at such events as the Crusades, the religious wars and Western Imperialism, there certainly are terrible black spots on Christian history. However, in my view, this is nothing like the relentless Muslim aggression that has been visible since Islam's birth. Whereas Christianity originally expanded through evangelism, Islam expanded through conquest in its origins. Ever since, Islam has continued to expand through conquest. While Christianity has bent under separation of church and state, religion and state have always been closely entwined in the Muslim religion. I recently heard a statistic that something like 30% of England was Muslim, and most of them were in favor of having Shariah law become the law of the land. France is experiencing the same dilemma, of large numbers of religious immigrants wanting to impose their views on a secular society. That is one of the levels of tension in French society. Quote:
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My grandmother was once talking with a Muslim, and he was delighted to find out how many religious parallels in beliefs they held. Yet then she stated one point where they differed. She said, "if someone killed my husband, I would forgive the murderer." He said he could not imagine that. This has repeatedly happened in court rooms, as a matter of a fact. The stories are astounding enough that they frequently make even international headlines. I recently on BBC saw a story of a Christian woman who had recently lost a family member because of a murder. She publicly forgave the murderer. Then there was another story I saw on television, where a young Christian man was shot in the back of the head and paralyzed. In court, he publicly forgave his attacker and asked that Jesus would come into the man's life. Now, Islam has a different story to tell. Muhammad and his followers suffered persecution as well, by their home tribe the Qur'aysh. They retaliated by raiding the Qur'aysh's caravans, taking hostages and slaughtering helpless settlements of Jews who were friendly with the Qur'aysh. They also fought the Qur'aysh themselves, and ended up conquering them. Then, Muhammad and his followers proceeded then to conquer all of Saudi Arabia. Muhammad was feared but also hated. Many of the conversions were obviously forced. As soon as Muhammad died, most of the tribes he had united sought to revolt. Only through a series of violent clashes did Muhammad's successor succeed in getting control of them all again, so that he could launch his own invasions, now beyond the borders of Saudi Arabia.
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11-18-2005, 04:47 PM | #348 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(Lief, you're selling it short - it's SEVENTY times seven! )
Good post.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-18-2005, 04:58 PM | #349 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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as far as christians being less violent, it's all a matter of pov... we didn't live during the crusades, we didn't live during the KKK's hayday, we didn't live in germany during WWII, we do live in a time of muslim terrorism
i point you to a few posts above lief the bottom line is that devout muslims can be peaceful, so the question is, do we target muslims in general, or do we just target violent muslims? i've posted at the 'moot for a long time... a place where there are many strongly religious viewpoints, and if there is one thing i can tell you is an absolutely pointless endeavor, bound to cause more trouble than good, it is attacking someone's belief system speaking out against the muslim faith, whether you like it or not, is counterproductive... it only makes matters worse... look at all the thousands of similarities and don't dwell on the differences... muslims are more people, just like you and me, then they are a "belief system" give them a chance, you might be surprised
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11-18-2005, 05:01 PM | #350 | |||
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Now, Christianity, which is based on the new covenant (though rooted in the old and fulfilling the old) came before Islam, and Islam was partly based upon Christianity. However, even Islam deviated from the Christian message in several critically important ways, and among these deviations were some of the important Koran passages concerning violence.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-18-2005, 05:12 PM | #351 |
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Wow, what scary questions you had there R*an. Each five of them seem to imply that all muslims are terrorists! Why are the muslims quiet? Well remember the muslim demonstrations of sympathy after 9/11? Anyway, maybe most muslims don't regard the terrorists as real muslims and feel no need to demonstrate against their atrocities. Maybe they feel demonstrating would be like acknowledging it's the fault of Islam that there are muslim terrorists. It's the terrorists themselves who are responsible, not the religion. I could think of lots of reasons why a muslim wouldn't want to go out and demonstrate.
Why are all the Palestinian terrorists muslims and not christians? That's a strange question considering there are very few christians residing in the West Bank and even fewer in the Gaza strip. It's also strange that the jewish Palestinians aren't mentioned since there are a lot more of them than christian Palestinians. When asking this question, you send the signals that christians are so nice and good, compared to the muslims. Wouldn't be the same thing if one asked "Why are none of the Palestinian terrorists Jewish?" I think these questions are asked in such a way to evoke hostile feelings toward muslims as a group, like if they were collectively responsible of the acts of a few individuals. Islamophobia, that's what it is.
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11-18-2005, 05:16 PM | #352 | |
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as long as there is even just one peaceful devout muslim in the world... they are untrue
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11-18-2005, 05:30 PM | #353 | ||
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We perceive things differently here and in the Muslim world, that's my point. Quote:
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11-18-2005, 05:34 PM | #354 | |
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General comment to everyone - This may be an uncomfortable topic, but that's no reason to avoid discussion or jump to conclusions. And BTW, the guy who wrote the article is Jewish, not Christian. And please don't discount the article because of that, either. I still think they are good questions to consider, altho they're not comfortable.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-18-2005, 05:39 PM | #355 | ||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 11-18-2005 at 05:42 PM. |
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11-18-2005, 05:42 PM | #356 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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(Goes around and looks on google) Quote:
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I'm not judging all Muslims. Many liberal Muslims are absolutely wonderful people. In fact, I don't think that I even judge the fundamentalists and terrorists as harshly as many do. This is because I think I can rather understand where they're coming from. I also admire their radical faith. That they are completely ready to die for their beliefs shows massive strength. In my opinion, this is the same strength many early Muslims showed, when they boldly tackled the Sassanid and Byzantine Empires combined. The odds against them were tremendous. The odds against Muslims even succeeding in Saudi Arabia were slim. Muhammad's followers can often be an impressive, though also terrible, lot. The determination for holiness that is present among many Muslims is rather beautiful, in my view. The passion and zeal in the terrorists is amazing. I also appreciate some of their moral positions, in their rejection of change in the God given truth spoken by their founder and their rejection of many forms of immorality. They are rather like Paul the Pharisee, before he became a disciple of Christ. Zealous, relentless, dedicated, though also murderous and twisted. There is much good as well as much bad. In some very important ways, us Christians have much to learn from the terrorists. However, there also is good and bad among liberal Muslims. They sense the evil the terrorists are involved in and they reject it. However, this also weakens them, because it causes them to also be ready to conform to ever-fluctuating modern moral values. It turns some from belief in an absolute truth. If they have no root, no basis to stand on, they can be washed hither and thither by the tide of changing human moral instincts. At the same time, there is embracing of goodness that here occurs. While kicking aside their roots, they are at the same time clutching at a goodness that is not preached in the Koran. I say this merely because I do not believe the Koran is absolutely true. When liberals pick and choose which parts of scripture they believe in, many times they make good decisions, and sometimes they also make bad decisions. As for myself, I rather disapprove of the decision of the liberals to call themselves Muslims while picking and choosing what part of God's supposedly flawless message they're going to believe. I think that having a root and basis from which to form belief is essential, and I think the early Muslims and the modern terrorists believe(d) that also. If Muslims reject this root, they have nothing but their own moral instincts to rely on. People's moral instincts are important, but they can be misguided- as has been clearly demonstrated by the "moral instincts" of the Japanese soldiers who invaded China, and the attitudes toward Jews inherent in many of the moral in Nazi Germany.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-18-2005, 05:44 PM | #357 | |
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Now you and I know the West doesn't intentionally kill innocent civilians. The people in the Middle-East might not feel that is the case. As I said earlier, we all perceive the world differently.
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11-18-2005, 05:47 PM | #358 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-18-2005, 05:50 PM | #359 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-18-2005, 05:59 PM | #360 | |
Quasi Evil
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Dont get into this tit for tat petty point thing by focusing on technicalities Lief (god justification). Thats not generally your style. Look at the broader picture of what we are saying here. Oh and by the way what would you call dropping a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and the pilot saying may god have mercy on us all as exactly? I think thats the shear definition of killing countless civilians on purpose while refering to a diety (in this case christian...). Its just hard to see it because thats our western perspective. But from their perspective its quite clear.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 11-18-2005 at 06:01 PM. |
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