09-20-2006, 08:44 PM | #341 | ||||||
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It has NOTHING to do with what I think you do or do not know, however ... Quote:
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09-20-2006, 08:54 PM | #342 | |
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And it seems to be that you guys seem to carry the same big brush you've all been accusing me of using, because you guys sure paint me wide...
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09-20-2006, 08:58 PM | #343 | |
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But I'm not asking them to whisper non-violence, they need to shout just as loud as the jerks.
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09-21-2006, 12:02 AM | #344 | |||
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09-21-2006, 10:44 AM | #345 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Rumsfeld's statement is an example of spin. He tries to lessen the importance of the fact that some troops are evil by making the true statement that stories about the relatively few evil troops are more high profile than the much more common stories about good troops. Instead of addressing the problem that some of our troops do evil things, he shifts the focus to the media's coverage of the troops. Something that is completely irrelavant to the topic at hand. If one story gets more coverage and you, the reader, assumes that it represents the majority because of this, it is your fault, not the media's fault. Anyone with an internet connection can find plenty of information that point to the facts that most of our troops are not evil and most muslims are not evil either.
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09-21-2006, 11:02 AM | #346 | |
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09-21-2006, 11:08 AM | #347 |
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....BB-"most muslims are not violent"....that's easy to say but when we do not hear from the non-violent ones it makes the case that much harder to make.
Hector......to quote a line from "Signs".."swing away".......some will never get it.
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09-21-2006, 11:10 AM | #348 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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.......There are not enough items like this to sustain the theory that there are non-violent muslims. What is needed is more organizations and more people making that case for the rest of the world to begin to realize it.
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09-21-2006, 12:35 PM | #349 | |
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Oops, maybe IRex and I are wrong...screaming and protesting constitutes violence after all...
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09-21-2006, 12:38 PM | #350 | ||
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I Do believe he specified newspapers. And he also said that comparing Guantanomo with the Gulag was stupid, since the Gulag didn't have a tennis court, and wouldn't have let you read Harry Potter... I think the secretary of defense has just as much right to say what he needs to; just because he's not a pedestrian doesn't mean cars have a right to run over him. Quote:
...and thank you Spock
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09-21-2006, 02:40 PM | #351 | |||||||||||||
Quasi Evil
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Do you feel its important to be rigid and divisive if being so reflects accurate doctrine even if it means infuriating masses of people to the point of threat of a clash of cultures? Quote:
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"(The church has been shaken by) numerous ideological currents. The boat has been unanchored by these waves, thrown from one extreme to the other: from Marxism to liberalism, up to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism, and on and on. An adult faith does not follow the waves of fashion and the latest novelty." Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-21-2006, 02:47 PM | #352 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Well Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc. etc. are infidels soooo....we don't count?
Of course the Pope is superior: Can YOU wear white all day and not get it dirty?
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09-21-2006, 03:14 PM | #353 | |||||||||||||||
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Christ had no trouble outright condemning people, or whipping them out of the temple; it's foolish to think it un-Christian for his vicar to accidentally offend people. Quote:
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But seriously, I strongly oppose a double standard like that. Double standard is the definition of "hypocrisy"; saying one thing, and doing another, and condemning someone for doing what you yourself do. Give all the reasons you want, but what it comes down to is "Double Standard". Quote:
But, ****, you are insidious. You will make me anti-muslim before you're done. If the hole doesn't fit the pidgeon, as it were, make the pidgeon fit the hole.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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09-21-2006, 03:33 PM | #354 | ||
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I think we should shelve the idea that this is a "few hot headed or fanatical nutters," though. Quote:
Muslims believe their religious leaders because (at least in the Middle East) they are taught that certain individuals have been given the right to interpret the Qur'an. It's not like Protestant Christianity, where anyone can interpret the Bible in the way they like. Hence, when the religious leaders speak in this way, a huge number of people are going to blindly agree with whatever they say. Osama Bin Laden did not have the authority to call his jihad against the US himself. He had to appeal to Pakistani clerics and clerics from other places to release the fatwa, the religious document that justified his actions in the name of Allah. They did this, and so his war against the US gained religious validation to many people. But this Pakistan problem is just one sample of the threat we face. While I agree that we definitely should not generalize these views to the majority of Muslims, it is important not to underestimate the scale of the danger that exists. One historical point: Jihadis defeated the mighty Soviet Union in Afghanistan, in spite of the fact that the USSR didn't care how many civilian casualties the country suffered and engaged in extensive and widespread destruction of the population. A million people were killed in that war, but the USSR lost anyway. In more modern times, the Iraqi insurgency that is causing the US so much grief in Iraq calls itself "Al'Qaeda in Iraq." Al'Qaeda and the Taliban are fighting us in Afghanistan as well. Radicalism is growing very rapidly and is already very widespread in the Middle East. Many people in Iran are strongly radical, and anyway, their government is certainly radical. The Palestinian territories obviously are. Syria is extremely radical- so much so that there is growing concern that if we do succeed in getting democracy established there, it would be a radical democracy like Hamas in the Palestinian territories. Somalia has a radical Islamic government in charge of the capital and a growing amount of the territory. Sudan is just ruthless. I don't know whether it fits with the radical Islamic ideology or not, but to me, it probably is the most evil government on the planet right now. The very large and only opposition party in Egypt is the Muslim Brotherhood, which is a former terrorist group and still is right in there with the radicals in much of its ideology. Malasia is a highly aggressive Muslim power that is very like Iran in ideology. Then one can point at other Muslim countries where radicalism is not dominant or an extremely powerful force, yet in these places, there is or has also been bitter violence going on between the ruling powers and the radicals. In Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and Pakistan there has been much violence between government forces and extremists. In Indonesia, perhaps less than in the other places mentioned. Radicalism also has been growing rapidly in the US and in Europe- pretty much it's been growing everywhere. This doesn't mean that all Muslims are violent or that the majority are. I strongly believe that the majority is not violent. All I'm saying is that this is a very widespread threat we face, and it's getting worse and worse at a great speed.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-21-2006 at 03:58 PM. |
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09-21-2006, 04:44 PM | #355 | ||||||||||||||||||
Quasi Evil
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[quote]Well, were the people at the funeral Christian or not?[quote] Yes they were. Fred Phelps. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-21-2006, 04:59 PM | #356 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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09-21-2006, 06:08 PM | #357 | |||
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09-21-2006, 06:52 PM | #358 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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...which makes me bring up another point: if you don't believe they are born terrorists, where do you think they come from? I find the issue very gray in this respect; because I think a lot of the Iraqi Army are just insurgents who want to exploit the position... Quote:
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The innocent peace-loving Muslim is not going to matter until he comes up from under the depths of the water. Meanwhile, as everyone has been saying, the cameras are rolling where it's hot. Quote:
I cut it like this: burning, anything...counts as extreme protesting - though not violence-, especially when it is another country's flag...which of course, it always is, except with American communists... Quote:
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[quote] The popes right of free speech is NOT what this is about. Its about simply taking some care in what you say when you have such enormous influence on people and therefore world events.[/quotes] Whackos who go out and burn and kill (respectively, in some cases) don't have a responsibility? They have freedom to do whatever they want just because they're mad and protesting? I say each radical muslim extremist has the lives of his brethren in his hand far more than any Pope ever did or could... Quote:
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...that certainly includes me. Quote:
I have said before, that while not everyone is stereotypical fitted, that stereotypes exist for a reason. Those girls who say "like" like, all the time, they exist. That's pretty much as far as you can carry stereotyping them however... Quote:
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Let me expound *looks at clock* on this... Not all insurgents (gasp! Hector! ) want the destruction of the west per se, and I think a lot of them do it for pay or security (ironically)...pretty much why you would join the mafia, they want to be on the side that they think is winning. These are the desperadoes, but it does not make what they are doing good in any way, especially since they seem not to mind killing their brethren. In the same way, not all of the protesters are terrorist-minded, but even the ones who didn't kill nuns, are, IMO displaying violent behaviour. And this is why I say that there are not the Black terrorists, and the White peace lovers...it is very much gray. Hezbollah support (from Shiites, as you point out) showed this. Our soldiers can't attack these people, becuase they are not extremists WHO KILL, and they're faces are familiar. Quote:
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Ok...sorry Quote:
But basically, my idea is delusional it could never happen. But your idea that since we keep discriminating against muslims and want to profile them, Bin Laden is going to read our minds and start recruiting blue eyed terrorists... Quote:
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And whoever said the middle ground, was the ground that solved everything? Quote:
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Note: if you notice a certain "drabness" from absence of smilies, it is because the amount of them were too much for posting...
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 09-21-2006 at 09:01 PM. |
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09-21-2006, 06:52 PM | #359 | ||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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09-21-2006, 07:43 PM | #360 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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Not that I'm saying all of these protesters are extremists. The British Muslim Council accepted the Pope's apology quickly, and many of the moderate protesters have not been protesting with "death to the pope" signs. But when protesters do espouse extremist ideology in their protests, one can call them extremists and part of the danger we face, even if they are not yet actively involved in supporting terrorism. Thus protests can be very significant. If you're saying that because the protests have been largely non-violent, the only extremists we saw among them were those who burned six churches in the West Bank and the one who murdered a nun, which probably amounts in all to two or three hundred people, then you're using a very slanted means of calculating. When people burn pope efigees, I call that extremism. When they say, "Death to the pope," I call them extremists. Protests were taking place in many places . . . one important point that should interest us as far as extremism goes is knowing how many of them were calling for violence. An important piece of knowledge we can gain from the scale of these protests is that many Muslims worldwide are offended by the words of the pope. When I read about the words of the pope, I knew that he was being misunderstood immediately. This is because I have a significant amount of trust for him, in addition to the fact that there was plentiful evidence that he was innocent of bad intentions from what he said. If people don't trust the West though, this they might be biased into thinking that the pope actually means these words himself. This is all just my perspective talking; I don't have evidence that this was what was going on in people's minds. But I know that for myself, I immediately knew he was misunderstood because I trusted him. For others, if they distrusted him, they might read into his words things that aren't there. So the very sad way that I interpret the scale of these protests is a strong indicator that distrust of the West and perhaps also anti-Western feeling are very widespread. This is not the fault of the pope. He made himself clear in his original speech. But the reaction to this speech shows that anti-Western feeling (note that I'm not saying extremism here, for it's a certain degree of opposition I'm talking about here, not the full growth of it) is widespread in the Muslim world. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-21-2006 at 07:48 PM. |
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