muslims PART 2

[BeardofPants]

My god Hector, do you honestly believe that ALL muslims espouse violence?! Frickin' 'ell. Sweeping generalisation, much?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

My god Hector, do you honestly believe that ALL muslims espouse violence?! Frickin' 'ell. Sweeping generalisation, much?

Sweeping Generalisation that you think I do think that, especially when I said I didn't.

I shouldn't have to dance The Prelude & Jig Of Political Correctness everytime I talk about something...

[Insidious Rex]

Then dont be a hypocrite and talk about muslims being lame because of this or that and in the same breath not criticize the pope one bit for including comments about muslims being violent and islam being barbaric in a speech designed to REACH OUT to non catholics in an attempt to achieve a meeting of the minds. After all is the Popes roll to divide or to bring together? What a hypocrite. But this plays right into the hands of the EXTREMISTS (not the MUSLIMS as you state...) who want to have a global conflict between Islam and Christianity. The world would be a lot better off without EITHER popes that act like superior hard asses taking digs at all non Christians whenever he feels like it and extremist zealot wack jobs that take these comments as an opportunity to kill and blow up innocent people and rile up the populace and cause further division and hostility.

What will happen now if they attempt to do something to the Vatican? To the Pope himself even? After all he will be going to Turkey soon. So brace yourselves… This gives the real fanatical killers exactly the ammunition they want to achieve open global religious conflict. And to have an American shouting about “them muslims!” fits right into that plan.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Then dont be a hypocrite and talk about muslims being lame because of this or that and in the same breath not criticize the pope one bit for including comments about muslims being violent and islam being barbaric in a speech designed to REACH OUT to non catholics in an attempt to achieve a meeting of the minds. After all is the Popes roll to divide or to bring together? What a hypocrite. But this plays right into the hands of the EXTREMISTS not the MUSLIMS who want to have a global conflict between Islam and Christianity. The world would be a lot better off without EITHER popes that act like superior hard asses taking digs at all non Christians whenever he feels like it and extremist zealot wack jobs that take these comments as an opportunity to kill and blow up innocent people and rile up the populace and cause further division and hostility.

So it's horrible evil pope's that blow up cars and people? It's the pope who made Osama do it?

I think what you ignore IRex, is that this time, this second chance for Muslims to show their psyche when they are critisized, this time they did not suceed in showing they were that rational or straight thinking. And I say I do not believe all muslims are like this because I believe it, not because I want to hold the redlight of protection. It's impossible for all muslims to be like that, in the first place, I realize that. But you seem to fluctuate your numbering of terrorists when you say "a few jerks", and yet muslims from all around the world have been protesting this!

Secondly: the Pope should not have to worry about when he QUOTES A TEXT, which he says did not reflect his own view, and HAVE PEOPLE KILL EACH OTHER OVER IT. You seem to like lumping all the blame on the pope, but that leads me to point out that this situation seems to be one of those abusive relationship quagmires..."You're making me do this! You're making me beat you up! It's YOU who want this!"...Cry babies.

What will happen now if they attempt to do something to the Vatican? To the Pope himself even? After all he will be going to Turkey soon. So brace yourselves… This gives the real fanatical killers exactly the ammunition they want to achieve open global religious conflict. And to have American shouting about “them muslims!” fits right into that plan.

Yep, Bin Laden is quite the civil rights activist...he wants us to think all muslims are evil so we can bomb the whole entire Middle-East without guilt, so everyone will die...including him!...The only reason they can DO what they do is BECAUSE we DON'T bomb!

Let the peace-loving muslims protest against these idiotic extreme-jihadists! I want to know where they are in the crowd of the world! Stop protesting the pope for saying the truth, stop protesting your real allies when you have people of your own race and religion who don't care if they kill you or not!

God bless and keep the Pope. He's brave for wanting to go still, even after the riots...

[Spock]

Indeed, Hector. Where is the voice of the 'moderate muslims'? Daily Christians and Jews are called infidels and their deaths demanded; two weeks ago "kill one a day before the 15th of September" cried one Muslim leader. I see no Christian or Jewish mobs burning mosques or parading around in 'just new clothes' and fancy signs.
....as for the Popes remarks, he twice said "and I quote"...so for anyone to get upset just shows the ignorance of those people.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Saying that the Muslims are being violent and hypocritical after someone says somthing about them - is stating a fact.

in the same way that the Christians are all peodophile priests, is stating a fact?

Is it not rather the point that we do not define ourselves or others by the actions of the few?

Could we thus define all chrisitians as TV evangelists as a fact because some Christians are TV evalengelists?

One can only read and take meaning from what is there Hector old boy.

And as sweeping generalisations go from (whaetver) 1 billion muslims etc, a few hot headed or fanatical nutters (joyfully leapt upon by the global media and broadcast into the west, as the Pope's words were into the east) does not mean THE MUSLIMS -

..................................

you know we need someone with tact and a sureness of touch to bridge east and west ...someone like the Duke of York

[Spock]

Right, it's "them people"

[Spock]

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Spock

Indeed, Hector. Where is the voice of the 'moderate muslims'? Daily Christians and Jews are called infidels and their deaths demanded; two weeks ago "kill one a day before the 15th of September" cried one Muslim leader.

If you haven't heard any 'voice of moderate muslims' by now, I take it the media has not found those quite so interesting as people shouting death threats.

On another note, if I were a moderate muslim I'd also be sick as hell by now of constant having to defend my religion against people of other faiths because some terrorists try to hijack my religion for their own agenda.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Then dont be a hypocrite and talk about muslims being lame because of this or that and in the same breath not criticize the pope one bit for including comments about muslims being violent and islam being barbaric in a speech designed to REACH OUT to non catholics in an attempt to achieve a meeting of the minds.

The Pope did not say that. Did you read the address?

After all is the Popes roll to divide or to bring together?

To rule the Christian people, and ultimately to bring all people together. But what the hell would you know about the Pope? Or why would you care? I would wager you've yet to say a good word about him.

What a hypocrite.

Why do you claim that?

The world would be a lot better off without EITHER popes that act like superior hard asses taking digs at all non Christians whenever he feels like it

This is an absolutely false characterization. Don't just vomit venomous generalizations, back them up.

What will happen now if they attempt to do something to the Vatican? To the Pope himself even? After all he will be going to Turkey soon.

I'm guessing, "He'll deserve it".

[Spock]

Well if the Clinton News Network doesn't show it, I'm sure as h*** not subscribing to Al Jazeera.

[Spock]

OH, and I've seen no big headlines about moderate muslims in that bastion of 'fair and balanced news' otherwise known as TNYT.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

in the same way that the Christians are all peodophile priests, is stating a fact?

Silly BB, not all Christians are priests!

But anyway, the response of the Muslims of Islamic countries seems to be largely violent, reactionary, and intentionally insulting, (demonstrations saying "ISLAM WILL CONQUER ROME" and "MAY GOD CURSE THE POPE", etc.). While the response of first-world Muslims has been more mild, this does seem to be largely true of the third-worlders.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Silly BB, not all Christians are priests!

aha!

*what is the latin for logic? *

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Dunno, but "ratio" is reasoning.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

aha!

*what is the latin for logic? *

acervus!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

You sho' bout that?

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Well, when I said they did not protest carbombings etc...I was referring to Iraqis.

Yes, Happiness is the real thing, but to get it; do you need peace or freedom?

Freedom at any price is the fight for the future happinesses; even if you aren't one of them that will experience it. Peace at any price is temporary, and things end up boiling over anyways.

Happiness is temporary. Freedom is temporary. Hell, life is temporary. But you can get along fine without both freedom and peace - to a certain extent. For prolonged happiness I'd think both would be required.

But anyway, the response of the Muslims of Islamic countries seems to be largely violent, reactionary, and intentionally insulting, (demonstrations saying "ISLAM WILL CONQUER ROME" and "MAY GOD CURSE THE POPE", etc.). While the response of first-world Muslims has been more mild, this does seem to be largely true of the third-worlders.

I'd think all these reactions have largely (though not solely, of course) social reasons. Thus muslims in poor countries with a history of (perceived or otherwise) western meddeling are more inclined to go for violent solutions. Also, I believe the Pope may have been misunderstood - the point of the quote he brought up could be a bit obscure to most people, I think. But has there been any big-scale riots/demonstrations yet? Only seen a few pictures of people burning papal dolls and shouting stuff + a few extremist leaders calling for the Pope's execution etc.

Indeed, Hector. Where is the voice of the 'moderate muslims'?

Oh, they're around. They just don't get or crave so much screen-time.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

So it's horrible evil pope's that blow up cars and people? It's the pope who made Osama do it?

I believe my exact words were “superior hard ass popes who take digs at non Christians”. If you get the above from that wording youll need to work on your remedial reading skills I think.

I think what you ignore IRex, is that this time, this second chance for Muslims to show their psyche when they are criticized

So you agree that they have been criticized then from this statement clearly. But your contention is that despite that, they should use this as an opportunity not to react and keep quiet? How convenient… But nevermind that hypocrisy. I think what YOU ignore is the fact that you cant make sweeping general statements about MUSLIMS as a single monolithic entity and turn around and complain when some get pissy and act like children and get riled up by extremists to the point of being foolish and loud. Not to mention lumping those same folks in with the burning of churches and the shooting of a nun. Blaming “MUSLIMS” for that is kind of like blaming “CHRISTIANS” for protesting against gays at military funerals. Guess what gets all the press…

But you seem to fluctuate your numbering of terrorists when you say "a few jerks", and yet muslims from all around the world have been protesting this!

Protesting? You are condemning them for protesting? For real? This from an American? Even if you feel they are mistaken or being over the top surely you cant really hold someone in contempt for marching and waving signs and protesting and such. Isn’t that a basic right here in ameirca? To protest even conceivable silly thing possible in the name of free speech? Do you really truly expect EVERY muslim to just shut up about it even if they (right or wrong) felt slighted by the speech?

No. what you should be condemning is the few barbaric incidents like the burning of churches and the killing of the nun. But THESE were done by extremist wack jobs and shouldn’t be labeled as standard muslim action which you are doing by lumping them all together.

Secondly: the Pope should not have to worry about when he QUOTES A TEXT

He should absolutely worry about when he quotes a text! Are you kidding? Hes the pope for godsake! Not some private citizen. He needs to wary of every single syllable of every single word he ever says because he is the very living symbol of a religion for better or for worse. More so then any president or prime minister or ambassador what the pope says is crucial and impactful beyond degree in this world. He needs to think ‘you know, even though I don’t agree with this sentiment Im not going to say this because it will only give extremists and fundamentalists fodder to do exactly what it is Im striving against’. He needs to use his head and realize that every common man around the world is not a clever intellectual who will study the speech and hear what he is saying but will get information second and third hand by people with an axe to ground and motivation to wreak havoc and will react in a bad way. Perhaps you want to call this being politically correct and perhaps to you being able to say what you want is worth the threat of an all out global conflict between the east and the west where millions could die. Personally I don’t feel that way. I think you should be the bigger man if you have the opportunity. Even if it means ‘giving in’ a little and being careful what you say or do. I think winning a point in a debate at the at the expense of others lives makes a person a small minded selfish fool.

You seem to like lumping all the blame on the pope

Ive hardly lumped all the blame on the pope. I think I have faulted the pope for not being careful about what he said and faulted the extremists for being hypocrites and murderers and lunatics deserving of annihilation. Now please explain to me how that is “lumping all the blame on the pope” exactly? Oh that’s right if I mention ANYTHING about the popes actions in this it means Im giving him ALL the blame in your eyes… I forgot…

Yep, Bin Laden is quite the civil rights activist...he wants us to think all muslims are evil so we can bomb the whole entire Middle-East without guilt, so everyone will die...including him!...The only reason they can DO what they do is BECAUSE we DON'T bomb!

What a bunch of garbage. Al Quaeda (and apparently its now debatable if this is Bin Ladens opinion as well) wants to cause a conflict between Non Muslims and Muslims. They want to cause a conflict between East and West in which they rally the east and the Muslim world to their side by basically saying ‘see they are against us! They want to destroy/subjugate/enslave/you-name-it us!’. That is their ultimate goal. They see our invasion of Iraq as one convenient stepping stone toward that. And they are happy to use whatever cultural gaffs like the cartoons or the Popes comments toward this horrible end. This kind of thing could be a classic domino starter. A small event that starts a chain of events that leads to something horrific. What happens if as I said they suicide bomb the Vatican and use the Popes comments as justification for that? Imagine the kind of reaction that could cause. You could end up with a World War I-like spinning out of control situation that could lead to millions dieing. Is it really worth it to you?

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Spock

acervus!

Docendo discimus!

acervus of Horse ....